42: More CPT updates

by Richard on March 27, 2006

“Before people write rubbish it would be a good idea if they read some of the background,” says our friend Dave. Couldn’t agree more. And he offers some great links to enable folk to do just that.

{ 61 comments… read them below or add one }

1

dh 03.27.06 at 9:15 pm

I read the post on the colonel and it appears the reference of his post was taken out of context. He stated “…thank you very much, about putting us in danger.” The very nature of this quote assumes that CPT put troops in additional danger than otherwise but that it is not a concern in that soldiers are put in danger by the very nature of their occupation. I think we need to take what he said in context rather than out of context in light of the Colonels acknowledgement of the additional danger CPT put on soldiers than otherwise.

2

J 03.27.06 at 9:40 pm

I checked out one of the Ekklesia links (http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_060327cptmedia.shtml) but was afraid my computer might catch on fire in the presence of so many straw men. My favorite:

“Allegation: There is no legitimate role for Christians in a situation like Iraq.”

Is that a common sentiment in the UK? Also, what’s with stuff like this:

“Ekklesia, the respected UK religious think tank”

Yes, this was in a post on…the Ekklesia website.

“the respected Bradford University School of Peace Studies”

How about letting the reader be the judge of that.

3

Dave Warnock 03.27.06 at 10:15 pm

dh,

I have responded to your duplicate comment on 42 by pointing out that by missing the context and quoting only the last part of a sentence you are giving a different understanding.

I would agree that he did not explicitly say “You are causing no more danger to the troops” but his attitude seems to be to be “I don’t care who you are or what you do”

J,

How many press releases do you read to think this is unusual?

Many of the comments that have been written here on connexions and elsewhere certainly make that allegation seem real (although I accept that Ekklesia have worded it rather more politely than is often the case).

Certainly, I have read and heard many people asking exactly that question. Tragically I have heard many people call themselves Christians and at the same time attack CPT for responding to their faith and be peacemakers.

Dave

4

dh 03.27.06 at 10:33 pm

Dave, I don’t see the attitude you are getting for I could also state that you are missing the context of “…“…thank you very much, about putting us in danger.”

If it was the attitude (in light of the additional quotes you mentioned) then why would he even state what I referenced (“…thank you very much, about putting us in danger)? Your conclusion does not make sense in light of the additional part of the quote I referenced. He might not care what they are or what they do but ““…thank you very much, about putting us in danger.” acknowledges additional dangers that the Colonel feel is no big deal but dangers none the less.

5

Beth 03.27.06 at 10:58 pm

dh - I think you’re misunderstanding the construction of the Colonel’s sentence - I quote it from Dave’s reply to your post at 42:

“It’s part of a soldier’s job to be in danger, so we don’t need your worries, thank you very much, about putting us in danger.”

“thank you very much” refers to the earlier part of the sentence - a rephrased version would be “It’s our job to be in danger, so thank you but we don’t need your worries.” He isn’t saying “thanks for putting us in danger”. Do you see what I mean?

6

J 03.28.06 at 2:50 am

“How many press releases do you read to think this is unusual?”

According to Ekklesia, this was a news story.

As to the “allegation”, criticism of the CPT is not the same as saying there’s no role for Christians.

7

Kim 03.28.06 at 3:03 am

This isn’t moral rocket science. What we have here is a bunch of churlish pro-war folk deployng “courtesy” as a way of having a go at peace activists. Their contemptuous accusations of ingratitude are a smokescreen - and a disgrace. It is entirely consistent with the ethos of the members of the CPT team that, on their (potentially) violent rescue, they didn’t break into a Hallelulia Chorus of praise for the military. Rather, Norman Kimber’s words were dignified and restrained, thankful as he was for his own present safety, but putting it in the context of the danger, anguish and death that is the daily life of ordinary Iraqis - which is why he and his pacifist colleagues are there.

Just imagine a storming rescue of the crucified Jesus by an armed unit of regrouped disciples. As Jesus descends from the cross he says, “On behalf of my Father and I, I can’t tell you howe thankful we are. What would we have done without you - I mean apart from redeeming the world with non-violence?”

In the aftermath of 9/11, the dissident American Methodist theologian Stanley Hauerwas was mockingly asked, “Well, what alternative do you have to bombing Afghanistan [and Iraq]?” Hauerwas replied: “Such a question assumes that pacifists must have an alternative foreign policy. My only response is I do not have foreign policy. I have something better - a church constituted by people who would rather die than kill.” He might have been talking of the CPT.

8

J 03.28.06 at 4:24 am

You can read an interview with Hauerwas here: http://www.globalengagement.org/issues/2002/02/hauerwas.htm

“Such a question assumes that pacifists must have an alternative foreign policy. My only response is I do not have foreign policy. I have something better - a church constituted by people who would rather die than kill.” He might have been talking of the CPT.

Well, no actually. He sounds more like Nigel Tufnel explaining why his amplifier goes to eleven. But I digress. Agree or disagree with the CPT folks, they’re doing things they believe will make the world better. Calling a denizen of America’s academic fantasy world with Hauerwas’ views a dissident is just ridiculous.

9

Kim 03.28.06 at 11:58 am

For all your side-splitting sarcasm, J, the only sensible thing you say (apart from “But I digress”) is to refer us to the Hauerwas interview. Otherwise you (a) state the duh-obvious - viz., that “the CPT folks [are] doing things they believe will make the world better”; (b) suggest that we dismiss the American academy because its scholars do not live in the world according to J; and (c) deny Hauerwas the epithet “dissident” - the same Hauerwas who joint-edited Dissent from the Homeland: Essays after September 11 (2003), a collection of essays “united in the belief that America is threatened by the most powerful enemy in its history, the administration of George Bush”, a collection in which Hauerwas himself says “‘God bless America’ is not a hymn any Christian can or should sing. At least . . . unless it is understood that God’s blessing incurs God’s judgment.” Sound like the words of a “dissident” to me. Or do you have to be Lee Harvey Oswald?

10

J 03.28.06 at 2:37 pm

“(c) deny Hauerwas the epithet “dissident” - the same Hauerwas who joint-edited Dissent from the Homeland: Essays after September 11 (2003), a collection of essays “united in the belief that America is threatened by the most powerful enemy in its history, the administration of George Bush”, a collection in which Hauerwas himself says “‘God bless America’ is not a hymn any Christian can or should sing. At least . . . unless it is understood that God’s blessing incurs God’s judgment.” Sound like the words of a “dissident” to me. ”

That sounds like somebody spewing the orthodoxy of his peer group to me. Not an uncommon activity - I do it all the time - but I wouldn’t call it dissent. The CPT’s have some political stances I disagree with (quite a few, actually), but they took considerable risks to do what they did. A university professor saying the Bush administration is the root of all evil isn’t taking any risk at all.

11

Richard 03.28.06 at 3:29 pm

I suppose the question that has to be asked of any dissent is “from what?” Unless you believe that the only true dissent is that which comes from a completely lone voice, which would be very rare indeed.
You’re surely not saying that Hauerwas and some fellow academics are equivalent in power to Bush and his administration?

12

dh 03.28.06 at 3:45 pm

Beth I see what you mean but your rephrasing still doesn’t say what you are trying to say that there is no additional danger. I’m saying and what the Colonel is saying is that there is addtional danger but that those dangers are no big deal because that is the nature of the occupation. I never thought he was saying thanks for putting us into danger. The understanding of proper context is that the addtional danger is no big deal and minimal in relation to the other dangers. For me him recognizing the addtional danger is the important thing. I feel he is acknowledgine it he is of the opinion that it is no big deal and minimal. For me any addtional danger, even the minimalist ones, above what is otherwise the case are problems.

13

Kim 03.28.06 at 6:25 pm

Hauerwas himself, j - I am sure - would be the first to say that CPT’s pacifist witness is in a different league from his own theo-political polemics: it is the blood of the martyrs, not the blasts of the professors, that is the seed of the church. But do you think for a moment that CPT does not appreciate the support of Hauerwas and his colleagues? After all, Mandela and Tutu expressed their immense gratitude to the “peer group” known as the Anti-Apartheid Movement, even if all that most of us tucked up safely in Britain did was write a letter to our MP, go on the occasional demonstration, refuse to buy South African fruit - and preach the odd “political” sermon against the foreign policy of Maggie Thatcher (a BBC production has just reminded the UK of the baroness’ great admiration for the tyrant Pinochet) . Hauerwas’ contribution is small change compared to the cost of discipleship of Norman Kimber. As for Bush and his cronies, however - well, I remember a poster from the Vietnam period: “War is good business - invest you sons.”

14

J 03.28.06 at 6:59 pm

“You’re surely not saying that Hauerwas and some fellow academics are equivalent in power to Bush and his administration? ”

Absolutely not, though they still have a great deal of influence.

15

Bene D 03.29.06 at 8:03 pm

From Ron Sider - a co-founder of CPT

“I basically said if we Mennonites think we have an alternative in peacemaking, then we’d better put ourselves on the line. We’d better go into the midst of difficult, dangerous situations and try to stand between warring parties and understand both sides and try to help them hear each other. The Mennonite church engaged in a very careful, two-year process of discernment. The question was, does this kind of activist, confrontational engagement fit with our understanding of what Jesus taught? And the answer was yes. The Christian Peacemaker Teams was launched.”

I see the usual two competing loyalities going on here.
I’ve learned that discussion with someone from the US means talk is focused on them and US references have to be used.
Rather than see this self-focus as a discouraging thing, I see it as an opportunity to attempt to engage people who are trying to raise their heads and looking out over their isolation.

To attempt to talk to those whose first loyality is to their country citizenship or their political identify is difficult - there are people engaging in this thread who have no alliance or allegiance to Republican, Democrat or White Houses.
He who has to gold wins, he who holds the political power has the influence, he who calls the shots in wars is right, just and blessed by God.

And there are those who say wait a minute - my primary citizenship is in another kingdom, I am called to serve and be conformed into the image of His Son as a peace maker and peace keeper, and that trumps my politics, my job, my country, my education. We are called to serve Jesus Christ over God Bless America. And maybe everything isn’t a US based either/or mentality.

So J - Bush has the power? Jesus talked about who the greatest in His kingdom were, are and would be, and they are not great in His eyes because of their earthly power and influence.

16

dh 03.29.06 at 8:34 pm

“He who has to gold wins, he who holds the political power has the influence, he who calls the shots in wars is right, just and blessed by God.” We know it was Saddam who called the shots. If he wouldn’t have perpetrated these terrible things against his people we wouldn’t be here in the first place and if Iran wouldn’t have went to war with Iraq as well. Sometimes what is for the greatest good for the greatest amount of people is a bad thing and the choice is between multiple bad things and sometimes we must choose the better of two bad things. Give America and the UK a break Saddam is out of power and wwe know the people are free from a terrible regime. To me it is reminiscent of Patrick Henry’s “Give me liberty or give me death.”

17

dh 03.29.06 at 8:35 pm

I don’t think God wants us to sit back and do nothing against an evil dictator. We did all we could Saddam spit in our faces hense the reaction and corresponding ousting of Saddam.

18

Richard 03.29.06 at 10:21 pm

I don’t think God wants us to do nothing about evil dictators either. But it is just silly to imply that being against the invasion of Iraq is to be a supporter of Saddam Hussein. I’m glad he’s gone. But what has he been replaced with? According to Baghdad Burning yesterday, the following newsticker appeared on Iraqi tv the other night: “The Ministry of Defense requests that civilians do not comply with the orders of the army or police on nightly patrols unless they are accompanied by coalition forces working in that area.” She adds: “That’s how messed up the country is at this point.” A correspondent to my newspaper today reminded us that under Saddam about 500 000 Iraqis were killed in his 24 year reign. That’s about 57 a day. But given that the violent death rate has now risen to over 50 a day, what exactly has been achieved?

19

Bene D 03.30.06 at 1:09 am

Sigh. DH, are you remotely aware you reinforce some of the stereotypes I laid out in my comment? I don’t believe you have too.

I deliberately put a wrong link in a CPT post I did at my blog. Why?
I wanted to see if commenters bothered to click on the link.
Guess what?
You didn’t.

Let’s try again.
List of the 20th centuries most ruthless and evil leaders. The men on this list are guilty of genocide.
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

13th on the list is a megalomaniac named Saddam Hussein. Yesterday he went on a messianic rant against his countrymen. He is a very delusional, intelligent and dangerous individual.

Give America and the UK a break?
I think Richard makes two very important points.
Can you gist them?

In the meantime, this post is about the CPT, for people that get their exercise jumping to conclusions, not reading material presented to them and mouthing off anyway.

20

dh 03.30.06 at 2:30 pm

Question I’m looking for an answer without any other statements: Isn’t it a fact that if there wasn’t the War in Iraq that Saddam would be in power?

What has been achieved has to go beyond death and how people are allowed to think. I think my “give me liberty or give me death comment is where it comes in. Also, it takes time for lasting change to take place.

Can you give America and UK a break for getting Saddam out of power? All I hear is good that he is out of power but you never acknowledge the fact how that was done was the only way it could have been done.

21

dh 03.30.06 at 2:31 pm

I think that shows a the strongest stereotype, not acknowledging the “how” but acknowledging the greatfulness of Saddam being ousted.

22

dh 03.30.06 at 2:36 pm

You want to talk about propaganda. It was LBJ who promoted the war in Vietnam. That site was really funny in light of the facts. Also, the US never intentionally attacked civilians. They may have unintentionally. To say they intentionally did I feel is liable and I don’t see the proof especially in light of Nixon alone being villified and not LBJ. How many of these people who were hurt were people who supported things that were not freedoms as well: communism, Castroism, etc.

23

Beth 03.30.06 at 3:15 pm

dh - in answer to your question, it’s not a fact but, yes, it’s highly likely.

No other statements, as requested. But in response, a question of my own: Where does Jesus say that killing is acceptable?

24

dh 03.30.06 at 3:37 pm

With Jesus being God I would say that God told the Isrealites to destroy the ites and Jesus being God was fully at ease with that. Also, I believethat God would support anything that maximizes the greatest amount of life to be maintained over the longest period of time and I believe that Saddam out of power has will in the future acomplish that.

How is it not a fact in light of Saddam’s stubborness?

And based on it being highly likely then proves that the good you all acknowledge of Saddam being out of power can be attitiduted to the US and UK forces. At least acknowledge that for otherwise it just shows your extreme bias.

25

Dave Warnock 03.30.06 at 4:19 pm

dh,

Again you dodge the Gospel. Go to your New Testament and answer Beths simple question: “Where does Jesus say that killing is acceptable?”

26

Beth 03.30.06 at 4:27 pm

dh - I did you the courtesy of answering your question, as you asked, with no other statements or caveats, so please reciprocate in kind!

27

dh 03.30.06 at 5:27 pm

To me the bigger question is what God says on that and being that Jesus is fully God then Jesus would never contradict God and I believe Jesus never contradicted God in His statements as well. So my answer is what God said throughout time on the subject. For me the Gospel doesn’t contradict the Word of God. Hense my conclusion on the subject.

28

dh 03.30.06 at 5:29 pm

Again I will ask again: How is it not a fact in light of Saddam’s stubborness?

And based on it being highly likely then proves that the good you all acknowledge of Saddam being out of power can be attitiduted to the US and UK forces. At least acknowledge that for otherwise it just shows your extreme bias.

So why don’t you two do the courtesy of answering the question?

29

dh 03.30.06 at 5:30 pm

I answered the question: “I believe that God would support anything that maximizes the greatest amount of life to be maintained over the longest period of time and I believe that Saddam out of power has will in the future acomplish that.” and I would add what Jesus said never contradicted the above statement I made.

30

Beth 03.30.06 at 5:53 pm

I, personally, never said that having Saddam out of power brought much good to Iraq, so please don’t attribute that idea to me. Of course I acknowledge that his being out of power is attributable to UK and US troops. Am I going to thank them for what they’ve done in Iraq? No, not really.

I would answer your question, except it made no sense. “How is it not a fact in light of Saddam’s stubborness?” How is what not a fact?

And finally, let me try again - Where does Jesus (the second person of teh Trinity who speaks in the Gospels, not the first who speaks in the OT) say that killing people is acceptable? I AM NOT asking about the God of the OT, but about the teachings of Jesus.

31

dh 03.30.06 at 6:01 pm

Well the God of the OT is the same God of the NT in that the trinity have seperate natures but are one. So for me to seperate them out on this takes away from the Word of God being constant. I also already answered the question but you refuse to accept my answer. The trinity is one and seperate at the same time 100% of each. Your implication on the NT kind of downplays the unity of the Trinity and how they operate seperately but in conjunction with each other as one. “I and the Father are one.” (not that I believe in Oneness or Jesus only doctrine but I hope you get the point).

I never said you said it brought much good to Iraq I was talking about your implication that Saddam being out of power as being good. Are you saying Saddam should be in power?

Isn’t it a fact that if there wasn’t the War in Iraq that Saddam would be in power?
the fact that Saddam would be in power if no War in Iraq would have occurred. Can you answer that question in light of this clarification.

32

Beth 03.30.06 at 6:31 pm

I’ve already answered that one - yes, Saddam probably would still be in power. Am I glad he’s not still in power? Yes. Do I think that justifies war? No, absolutely not.

Of course Jesus and God are one, but there is some differentiation between God as he reveals himself in the OT and as he is revealed in Jesus in the NT. “A new commandment I bring unto you…” Jesus came to overturn the old “eye for an eye” way of doing things.

So, for the final time of asking… Where does Jesus say violence is acceptable?

33

dh 03.30.06 at 7:14 pm

“I did not come to do away with the Law but to fulfill the Law.” So I disagree with your conclusion on that. His “new commandement” didn’t “do away with” in light of the Scripture I quoted. You must look at Scripture in light of Scripture. Again I answered your question. I’m sorry you don’t see it in light of the Trinity.

If your glad he is not out of power then why not acknowledge how that took place in that that was the only way for Saddam to be out of power?

34

Beth 03.30.06 at 7:56 pm

You have not answered the question. If I wanted to follow what God said in the OT without considering it in the light of Christ’s revelation, I woudl be Jewish. I suggest you consider converting.

35

dh 03.30.06 at 8:26 pm

My belief is not Jewish. That is really funny. It appears your NT only in your belief I think that is not a proper concept when looking at Scirpture. I think it has to be Scripture in light of Scripture NT in light of OT and OT in light of NT. It is a combination without contradiction that I adhere to. Again I answered your question. My belief Jewish that is really funny. :)

36

dh 03.30.06 at 8:27 pm

I suggest a stronger view of the Word of God rather than be NT only.

37

Dave Warnock 03.30.06 at 8:40 pm

Actually the OT is pretty much against killing according to the books of the Law, try reading the 10 commandments. Killing goes against them as does coveting your neighbours oil fields.

Christianity sees the NT as a newer revelation of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) that takes us to a closer understanding of God.

And you still have not answered the question. Watch our lips:

“Where does Jesus say violence is acceptable?”

38

dh 03.30.06 at 9:28 pm

The killing refered to in the 10 commandments is actually murder and muder is the intentional, not unintentional killing, of an innocent person. Also, in light of God, I repeat GOD, telling the Isrealites to destroy the ites.
However, I do agree with the NT being a newer revelation but I don’t believe the NT does away with the OT but fulfills. Again it appears my 8:26pm post is true.

Coveting? So I guess when you look a that you can point at France and Germany on what they are coveting now in light they don’t get an opportunity ti get Saddam’s (now it is the people of Iraq’s) oil. I also don’t believe it was oil that we got into Iraq but to have the people of Iraq free from an evil dictator. To me the oil thing on that is a cop-out inlight of France and Germany obtaining oil under the wacko UN based “oil for food” program. That is why they were up in arms when the US and Uk went inot Iraq in the first place.

39

dh 03.30.06 at 9:30 pm

For me to see that no one on the other side mentions France and Germany and their particular interest which point to a messed up foreign policy on their parts seems strange to me. Maybe it shows additional bias as well?

40

Dave Warnock 03.30.06 at 9:52 pm

dh,

a) How many have France and Germany killed in Iraq? dh, get a sense of perspective. How about people in glass houses not throwing stones - or as Jesus said The person without sin may cast the first stone.

b) Look at the finances of Iraq in detail. Where is the money for reconstruction going?

People in Iraq are dying just as fast as when Saddam was in power, precisely how are they better off now?

41

dh 03.30.06 at 10:23 pm

I disagree with your final sentence. Especially if you look at who is dying within the numbers given and a good number of the are insurgents. I would much rather have the current situation with freedom of thought as compared with Saddam. (give me liberty or give me death) Also, how many were indirectly killed by France and Germany where the money went to Saddam to prop up his terror operation? So I do have a sense of perspective. Also, I think when you see reconstruction why shouldn’t it go to the countries who have done the most in getting rid of Saddam? At least reconstruction in a dramtic way is going on. What do you want no reconstruction going on? Also, shouldn’t the nations that have done the most to help Iraq be involved greater in the reconstruction? I definitely don’t think Germany and France who supported Saddam in violation of the 1992 resolutions should get the contracts. It doesn’t make sense. I don’t see the War in Iraq as sin when the reason is to get rid of an evil dictator that was torturing its people. (and don’t bring up the US and UK on that because the numbers in the hundreds of thousands of intentional killing and torutre of inncoent people by Saddam so much more dramtically more it doesn’t even compare). When looking at better off you need to get beyond just the deaths. In my case I would much rather die or leave the country under Saddam than live under Saddam. At least they can live in their country without being under an evil dictator. To me living under an evil dictator is worse than living or living in the country under the evil dictator.

42

Dave Warnock 03.30.06 at 11:01 pm

dh,

Maybe you would be happier living in Iraq as it is now so nice there?

43

Beth 03.31.06 at 12:42 am

Let’s pretend that Jesus and God are two different people, just for a minute. Now please, for the love of Mike, just answer the question:

“Where does Jesus say violence is acceptable?”

Once we’ve considered this, we can move on to whether God in the OT considers it acceptable and whether, as I believe, the teachings of Jesus put the violence of the OT into a new and different light.

44

Bene Diction 03.31.06 at 4:41 am

Beth: DH can’t obviously, I’ll use the KJV for his pleasure.
2 NT references

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” Matthew 11:12

“And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.” Luke 3:14

When Peter cut off the soldiers ear, what did Jesus do?
When jesus was before Pilate, and was treated violently what did he do?

This is interesting:
48 references to violence in the OT.

a) Mans violence to other men - interesting violence is most often mentioned with other sins; covetness, greed, scheming, not working, stealing, pride, deceit, oppression of the poor and needy, divorce, rumours of violence,
b) men plead for deliverence from mans and enemies violence
c) One reference in Isaiah is about about the violence that will be done to the Son of God in the hands of men.
d) Ezekiel - “By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence” - can this be why Jesus drove out the money changers in the Gentile outer section of the temple? Philip Yancy -

As I have said, the very architecture of the temple expressed the Jewish hierarchy: Gentiles could enter only the outer court. Jesus resented that merchants had turned the Gentiles’ area into an oriental bazaar filled with the sounds of animals bleating and merchants haggling over prices, an atmosphere hardly conducive to worship. Mark records that after the cleansing of the temple, the chief priests and teachers of the law “began looking for a way to kill Him”. In a real sense, Jesus sealed His fate with His angry insistence on the Gentiles’ right to approach God.

e) God talks about deliverence in most times violence is mentioned, His help and awareness, changing hearts, the safety of the just. Rarely is it mentioned His anger is provoked.
f) Mostly the punishment for violence is desolation, the violent is given over to the consequences of his behaviour as God choses.
Over and over in those 48 chapters He grieves mans violence, warns, pleads, reminds them of His faithfulness and begs them to turn away from wickedness and selfishness.

So DH, where does Jesus say violence is acceptable?

45

EDavidq762 03.31.06 at 1:52 pm

Biblical Quotes on Arms and Defense

There are very many references to weapons in the Bible. However, the quotes listed here outline the FACT of people being able to be armed. Rather than detailing countless instances of the actual uses of arms. And that it was a commonly accepted practice for people to be armed. Showing that it is the intention of God, that man is supposed to be armed, (mostly to be able to repel evil).

Luke 11:21

“When a strong man armed, keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace”

Luke 22:36

Then said he unto them, “But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one”.

- Jesus, whom is the Christ - The Lord

Acts 5:29

Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Acts 5:39

But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

2 Corinthians 10:4

For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds…

Joel 3:9-10
Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I [am] strong.

The following quote deals with what we, as American Citizens, are facing today and which we must NEVER allow to happen;

1 Samuel 13:19

Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make [them] swords or spears:

And this is the reason WHY we must never allow the disarming of American Citizens;

1 Samuel 13:22

So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that [were] with Saul and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found.

And, a word of WARNING from THE MAN, to the USURPERS;

Isaiah 10:1-4
Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness [which] they have prescribed;

To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and [that] they may rob the fatherless!

And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation [which] shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?

Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand [is] stretched out still.

Genesis 14:14

And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained [servants], born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued [them] unto Dan.

Genesis 48:22

Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.

Exodus 15:3

The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name.

Exodus 32:27

And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side…

Leviticus 26:6-8

And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make [you] afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.

And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.

And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

Numbers 1:3

From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies.

Numbers 31:5

So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of [every] tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

Numbers 32:17, 20, 21, 27

But we ourselves will go ready armed before the children of Israel, until we have brought them unto their place: and our little ones shall dwell in the fenced cities because of the inhabitants of the land.

And Moses said unto them, If ye will do this thing, if ye will go armed before the LORD to war,

And will go all of you armed over Jordan before the LORD, until he hath driven out his enemies from before him…

But thy servants will pass over, every man armed for war, before the LORD to battle, as my lord saith.

And Moses said unto them, If the children of Gad and the children of Reuben will pass with you over Jordan, every man armed to battle, before the LORD, and the land shall be subdued before you; then ye shall give them the land of Gilead for a possession…

Deuteronomy 1:41

Then ye answered and said unto me, We have sinned against the LORD, we will go up and fight, according to all that the LORD our God commanded us. And when ye had girded on every man his weapons of war, ye were ready to go up into the hill.

Deuteronomy 2:9

And there is a time to refrain from use of force;

And the LORD said unto me, Distress not the Moabites, neither contend with them in battle: for I will not give thee of their land [for] a possession; because I have given Ar unto the children of Lot [for] a possession.

Deuteronomy 20:3, 4

…ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them…

For the LORD your God [is] he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

Deuteronomy 32:41-43

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; [and that] with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.

Judges 5:8

They chose new gods; then [was] war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?

Judges 20:2
And the chief of all the people, [even] of all the tribes of Israel, presented themselves in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand footmen that drew sword.

1 Samuel 17:39

And David girded his sword upon his armour, and he assayed to go; for he had not proved [it]. And David said unto Saul, I cannot go with these; for I have not proved [them]. And David put them off him.

1 Samuel 17:45, 47

Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle [is] the LORD’S, and he will give you into our hands.

(And, David himself being ARMED while making this statement, promptly killed Goliath!)

1 Samuel 25:13

And David said unto his men, Gird ye on every man his sword. And they girded on every man his sword; and David also girded on his sword: and there went up after David about four hundred men; and two hundred abode by the stuff.

2 Samuel 1:18

(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah [the use of] the bow: behold, [it is] written in the book of Jasher.)

2 Samuel 11:25

…Let not this thing displease thee, for the sword devoureth one as well as another: make thy battle more strong against the city, and overthrow it: and encourage thou him.

2 Samuel 19:3

And the people gat them by stealth that day into the city, as people being ashamed steal away when they flee in battle.

(Probably THE BEST REASON to be ARMED, the STEALTH of those intent on causing us harm! There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that ANY POLICE or MILITARY can PROTECT EVERY MAN, WOMAN and CHILD! Especially these days, when we have COWARDLY TERRORISTS intent on causing US HARM!)

2 Samuel 22:32-35

For who [is] God, save the LORD? and who [is] a rock, save our God?

God [is] my strength [and] power: and he maketh my way perfect.

He maketh my feet like hinds’ [feet]: and setteth me upon my high places.

He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

2 Samuel 23:8, 10

These [be] the names of the mighty men whom David had: The Tachmonite that sat in the seat, chief among the captains; the same [was] Adino the Eznite: [he lift up his spear] against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time.

He arose, and smote the Philistines until his hand was weary, and his hand clave unto the sword: and the LORD wrought a great victory that day; and the people returned after him only to spoil.

2 Samuel 24:9

and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah [were] five hundred thousand men.

1 Kings 2:32

And the LORD shall return his blood upon his own head, who fell upon two men more righteous and better than he, and slew them with the sword…

1 Kings 3:24

And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king.

1 Kings 8:44, 45

If thy people go out to battle against their enemy, whithersoever thou shalt send them, and shall pray unto the LORD toward the city which thou hast chosen, and [toward] the house that I have built for thy name:

Then hear thou in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.

2 Kings 6:22

And he answered, Thou shalt not smite [them]: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master.

1 Chronicles 1:12

[They were] armed with bows, and could use both the right hand and the left in [hurling] stones and [shooting] arrows out of a bow…

1 Chronicles 5:18

The sons of Reuben, and the Gadites, and half the tribe of Manasseh, of valiant men, men able to bear buckler and sword, and to shoot with bow, and skilful in war, [were] four and forty thousand seven hundred and threescore, that went out to the war.

1 Chronicles 8:40

And the sons of Ulam were mighty men of valour, archers, and had many sons, and sons’ sons, an hundred and fifty. All these [are] of the sons of Benjamin.

1 Chronicles 12:23, 24

And these [are] the numbers of the bands [that were] ready armed to the war, [and] came to David to Hebron, to turn the kingdom of Saul to him, according to the word of the LORD.

The children of Judah that bare shield and spear [were] six thousand and eight hundred, ready armed to the war.

1 Chronicles 21:5

And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all [they of] Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah [was] four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

2 Chronicles 17:17

And of Benjamin; Eliada a mighty man of valour, and with him armed men with bow and shield two hundred thousand.
2 Chronicles 23:10

And he set all the people, every man having his weapon in his hand, from the right side of the temple to the left side of the temple, along by the altar and the temple, by the king round about.

2 Chronicles 25:5

Moreover Amaziah gathered Judah together, and made them captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, according to the houses of [their] fathers, throughout all Judah and Benjamin: and he numbered them from twenty years old and above, and found them three hundred thousand choice [men, able] to go forth to war, that could handle spear and shield.

2 Chronicles 26:14, 15

And Uzziah prepared for them throughout all the host shields, and spears, and helmets, and habergeons, and bows, and slings [to cast] stones.

And he made in Jerusalem engines, invented by cunning men, to be on the towers and upon the bulwarks, to shoot arrows and great stones withal. And his name spread far abroad; for he was marvellously helped, till he was strong.

2 Chronicles 36:20

And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia…

(death or slavery, hmmm)

Ezra 9:7

Since the days of our fathers [have] we [been] in a great trespass unto this day; and for our iniquities have we, our kings, [and] our priests, been delivered into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity, and to a spoil, and to confusion of face, as [it is] this day.

(Think the Founders WARNED us about THAT as well!)

Nehemiah 4:16-18

And it came to pass from that time forth, [that] the half of my servants wrought in the work, and the other half of them held both the spears, the shields, and the bows, and the habergeons; and the rulers [were] behind all the house of Judah.

They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, [every one] with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other [hand] held a weapon.

For the builders, every one had his sword girded by his side, and [so] builded. And he that sounded the trumpet [was] by me.

Esther 9:15

Thus the Jews smote all their enemies with the stroke of the sword, and slaughter, and destruction, and did what they would unto those that hated them.

Job 5:8-9, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16. 20

I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause…

Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number…

To set up on high those that be low; that those which mourn may be exalted to safety…

He disappointeth the devices of the crafty, so that their hands cannot perform [their] enterprise…

He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong…

But he saveth the poor from the sword, from their mouth, and from the hand of the mighty.

So the poor hath hope, and iniquity stoppeth her mouth.

In famine he shall redeem thee from death: and in war from the power of the sword.

Job 19:29

Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath [bringeth] the punishments of the sword, that ye may know [there is] a judgment.

Job 39:21-23

He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in [his] strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men.

He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword.

The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield.

Job 40:10-14

Deck thyself now [with] majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one [that is] proud, and abase him.

Look on every one [that is] proud, [and] bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

Hide them in the dust together; [and] bind their faces in secret.

Then will I also confess unto thee that

thine own right hand can save thee.

Psalms 7:10-17

My defence [is] of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day.

If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.

He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.

He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch [which] he made.

His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.

Psalms 11:2

For, lo, the wicked bend [their] bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.

Psalms 18:34

He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

Psalms 37:14

The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, [and] to slay such as be of upright conversation.

Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

Psalms 46:9

He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.

Psalms 91:5

Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; [nor] for the arrow [that] flieth by day…

Psalms 127:4

As arrows [are] in the hand of a mighty man; so [are] children of the youth.

Psalms 149:4-9

For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

Let] the high [praises] of God [be] in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;

To execute vengeance upon the heathen, [and] punishments upon the people;

To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Ecclesiastes 3:1, 3, 8, 14, 15

To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up…

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth [it], that [men] should fear before him.

That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

(Do you usurpers, blind and deaf not yet understand the meaning of this? IT IS THE WAY GOD ORDAINED THIS WORLD! NOTHING YOU CAN DO WILL CHANGE IT! LET IT BE! For not only are YOU fighting against the natural RIGHTS of man, but AGAINST the ORDINANCE of GOD Himself! Repent, while your still able!)

Ecclesiastes 9:18

Wisdom [is] better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

(So, in other words, it is better to use wisdom. But, because of the sinner, it is not wise to lay down the weapons of war.)

Songs of Solomon 3:8

They all hold swords, [being] expert in war: every man [hath] his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.

Isaiah 5:28, 29

Whose arrows [are] sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind:

Their roaring [shall be] like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry [it] away safe, and none shall deliver [it].

Isaiah 7:24

With arrows and with bows shall [men] come thither; because all the land shall become briers and thorns.

Isaiah 27:1

In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

Isaiah 31:8

Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.

Isaiah 54:17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue [that] shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This [is] the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness [is] of me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 34:17

Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith the LORD, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.

(Hope your taking notice you blind and deaf politicians - do YOU think YOU shall escape? He did this to His chosen people! Imagine His WRATH to those who are His enemies!)

Jeremiah 39:18

For I will surely deliver thee, and thou shalt not fall by the sword, but thy life shall be for a prey unto thee: because thou hast put thy trust in me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 48:10

Cursed [be] he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed [be] he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

Jeremiah 50:18-46

(The whole portion of this scripture is printed here because it details EXACTLY what is occurring RIGHT NOW in the present day. We MUST NOT allow ourselves to be DISARMED!)

Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria.And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead. In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and [there shall be] none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve. Go up against the land of Merathaim, [even] against it, and against the inhabitants of Pekod: waste and utterly destroy after them, saith the LORD, and do according to all that I have commanded thee. A sound of battle [is] in the land, and of great destruction. How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations! I have laid a snare for thee, and thou art also taken, O Babylon, and thou wast not aware: thou art found, and also caught, because thou hast striven against the LORD. The LORD hath opened his armoury, and hath brought forth the weapons of his indignation: for this [is] the work of the Lord GOD of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans. Come against her from the utmost border, open her storehouses: cast her up as heaps, and destroy her utterly: let nothing of her be left. Slay all her bullocks; let them go down to the slaughter: woe unto them! for their day is come, the time of their visitation. The voice of them that flee and escape out of the land of Babylon, to declare in Zion the vengeance of the LORD our God, the vengeance of his temple. Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel. Therefore shall her young men fall in the streets, and all her men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the LORD. Behold, I [am] against thee, [O thou] most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time [that] I will visit thee. And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The children of Israel and the children of Judah [were] oppressed together: and all that took them captives held them fast; they refused to let them go. Their Redeemer [is] strong; the LORD of hosts [is] his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon. A sword [is] upon the Chaldeans, saith the LORD, and upon the inhabitants of Babylon, and upon her princes, and upon her wise [men]. A sword [is] upon the liars; and they shall dote: a sword [is] upon her mighty men; and they shall be dismayed. A sword [is] upon their horses, and upon their chariots, and upon all the mingled people that [are] in the midst of her; and they shall become as women: a sword [is] upon her treasures; and they shall be robbed. A drought [is] upon her waters; and they shall be dried up: for it [is] the land of graven images, and they are mad upon [their] idols. Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell [there], and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation. As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. They shall hold the bow and the lance: they [are] cruel, and will not shew mercy: their voice shall roar like the sea, and they shall ride upon horses, [every one] put in array, like a man to the battle, against thee, O daughter of Babylon. The king of Babylon hath heard the report of them, and his hands waxed feeble: anguish took hold of him, [and] pangs as of a woman in travail. Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan unto the habitation of the strong: but I will make them suddenly run away from her: and who [is] a chosen [man, that] I may appoint over her? for who [is] like me? and who will appoint me the time? and who [is] that shepherd that will stand before me? Therefore hear ye the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Babylon; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the land of the Chaldeans: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make [their] habitation desolate with them. At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations.

Jeremiah 51:11

Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device [is] against Babylon, to destroy it; because it [is] the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

Ezekiel 9:1

He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man [with] his destroying weapon in his hand.

Ezekiel 33:6

But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.

(So, I guess what your saying, is were supposed to WARN our fellowman? As in, what you see HERE! A WARNING.)

Ezekiel 33:6

Ye stand upon your sword, ye work abomination, and ye defile every one his neighbour’s wife: and shall ye possess the land?

Zechariah 11:17

Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword [shall be] upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Matthew 10:34

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 22:49

When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?

(Now, wait a minute here. Israel was under Roman rule - a conquered people, yet Rome let them keep there swords? We citizens of the U.S. are not a conquered people, are we? How come they don’t want us to keep our ’swords’?)

Ephesians 6:17

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God…

THE DAY of RIGHTFUL DISARMAMENT:

Ezekiel 39:8, 9, 10

Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken.

And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down [any] out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

(And that day, is the ONLY day, in which WE should ALLOW ourselves to be DISARMED!)

Joshua 24:15

…choose you this day whom ye will serve…but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Luke 19:27

“But those MINE ENEMIES, which WOULD NOT that I SHOULD REIGN OVER THEM, bring hither, and SLAY [them] BEFORE ME.”
.
- JESUS of Nazareth

46

dh 03.31.06 at 2:30 pm

Beth, why pretend something that isn’t true? I also could say where does He say violence is not acceptable when we have evidence of violence from the moneychangers, violent statements against the Pharisee’s, Jesus telling the disciples to take up extra swords in the time before His crusifixion and the like?

Bene the fact remains God told the Israelites to destroy the ites. I just believe that God and Jeesus and the Trinity in the bible have shown righteuos indignation on multiple ocassions.

47

dh 03.31.06 at 2:31 pm

I also don’t base things in the Bible by how often they are mentioned in that the bible is consistent across all of the passages so the number of times on something doesn’t work.

48

Dave Warnock 03.31.06 at 3:16 pm

I have decided to write a few blog posts reviewing this so called evidence of the violent Jesus. Will be over the next few days/weeks.

49

Beth 03.31.06 at 3:33 pm

dh - if you were one of my students, I would have failed you long ago for your blatant disregard of the actual question being put to you!

50

Bene Diction 03.31.06 at 3:42 pm

Fine. I answered Beth’s question.

Man, that is the last time I say anything about the bible around you experts.

You guys have all the degrees and the collars. So fine, educate us.

Correct all us idiots, but pardon us if we don’t participate.

Go right ahead and make Beth look like a fool for asking and for me look like an ass narrowing the answer down to where the word it mentioned.

Lame, Dave, really lame. I’m offeneded by your pronouncement, it did not come across well at all.
No wonder people don’t want to talk about God or the bible with ministers.

While you’re at it, why not poke holes in the other bible thing I was stupid enough to post and review. Go on a roll and kill two birds with one stone.

I do beg your humble pardon for our ignorance, kind of you to set everyone straight Rev.

I happened to enjoy spending time in the bible answering Beths’ question, as narrow and incomplete as it ws, thanks for squishing that.

51

Bene Diction 03.31.06 at 4:10 pm

Dave you won’t have to poke holes in that post, I’ve taken it down, and I won’t attempt to step into your area of professional expertise again.

There are four ministers posting here, and one none minister with posting priviledges. I wasn’t trying to talk about God to your superior standards. I can’t.

Richard:
Please remove my comment. (reply to Beth)
I don’t have privileges to delete it, and I’ve had enoug humiliation this week, thanks very much.

52

dh 03.31.06 at 4:15 pm

Beth, is this a class? When I answered the question in light of the Trinity then what is the problem with my answer? I’m not making Beth look like a fool. I think what was being tried and failed was to make me look like a fool and I just don’t want to be dragged into that type of discussion.

Also, Bene I’m not a reverand but I do think we need to take the Bible for all its worth and that is to look at Scripture in light of Scripture.

I think Bene you shouldn’t be offended we all need to strive to be correct in our Faith in God and what that means as much as possible. (I say this as an encouragement).

53

Beth 03.31.06 at 5:23 pm

Bene - what happened, my dear? I’m convinced Dave isn’t trying to be insulting to you - I read his post more as a response to dh’s insistence on Jesus’ acceptance of violence, not to your account of the Biblical texts. He will respond, he says, to the so-called “violent Jesus” - in the context of what’s been said here, this is dh’s Jesus, not yours. It’s useful to have the opinions of trained theologians, since they can highlight debates or philosophies that the rest of us might not have encountered yet. But they’re not superior because of that.

I’m not trying to be patronising; it sounds like you’ve had a bad week. Take care, chill out, stuff yourself with poutine (and be glad that you live somewhere you can), and remember that, even when we express ourselves like complete dipsticks, we pretty much all care about each other here. (Apart from Richard - I hear he’s really mean).

54

dh 03.31.06 at 5:38 pm

Beth, it all matters one’s definition of violence is. Beth, I hope you don’t take my opinion in the extreme and project like Dave did that Jesus was a war monger or always for war. I hope what I have said is not taken in the extreme and that you are able to understand what I’m saying rather than what Dave did which is to project his sterotype of those who believe like me in the extreme onto myself. I believe basically that Jesus more times than not had soft love but he also had tough love. I define the violnce in the terms of “tough love” and righteous indignation and when you look at a few of the stories of Jesus (examples given previously) you can see the rare times where “tough love”, “righteous indignation”, “violence” that Jesus did for His Kingdom sake. Does this put what I think in proper perspective and greater appreciation? I hope for the impression I’m getting from those opposite than me is not the one I have of Jesus.

55

Dave Warnock 03.31.06 at 7:25 pm

Bene, My comment was entirely aimed at dh and his insistance in comments here and on my blog that Jesus supports violence. Personally I had read your post and if we had not been going out this afternoon would have commented. I thought it was an excellent piece that can provoke a lot of reflection on our understanding of God as revealed in the OT.
Sorry to have upset you.
Dave

56

Beth 03.31.06 at 7:30 pm

dh - I’m not trying to make you look like a fool, but to point out that I didn’t ask you to answer in light of the Trinity but in light of Jesus. Jesus is a member of the Trinity, but he also acts in his own person. I am trying to get at what Jesus in his own person said about violence. However, I accept that the way I expressed myself might have come across as patronising rather than humorous, so I apologise for that.

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dh 03.31.06 at 8:50 pm

I quess the difference between us is that I too believe that Jesus acts as His own person but that nothing He does contradicts what the Trinity has said or done. I look at the entirety of what the Trinity says rather than just one part of the Trinity. For me that is how one gets an accurate representation and respect for God as a whole rather than focusing on one without the other because I just don’t think we can look at just one aspect of God without looking at the entirety. Does that make sense? I know I might not have answered your question the way you would like but I hope you would respect my reverence for God in His entirety and the workings thereof.

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Bene Diction 03.31.06 at 9:26 pm

This is actually one of the few places were none theologians are welcome to speak. I know, they let me stay. We are even able to participate, and in all the back and forth, I’ve never felt stupid and out of place until today.:^(

Dave, I did not read you as directing your comments at DH, the subtly eluded me. You said nothing untoward, you merely made a statement of intent.

Yes, I’m upset, but you are not responsible for my feelings or how I direct them. I chose to enter into this conversation, inadvertently brought some bad baggage, and I’m sorry I made it your problem.

You made your statement of intent a at someone else, I reacted personally and sarcastically because I felt shamed. There is no excuse for speaking to you that way, or making grandly wounded and sweeping generalizations, you didn’t deserve that.

I’ll go have that poutine now.

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dh 03.31.06 at 10:37 pm

Bene, I’m sorry. i never meant in any of my comments to make you feel stupid, out of place, shamed, etc. That was never the intent. It is just I react when people make statments that pasicifsm is Biblical and all others aren’t that seems to be implied here on this post. Hense my response. My 5:38pm comment explains the balance I was trying to portray in my statements. I also reacted to people saying I supported and Jesus supported warmongering. That was never the intent as well. The overgeneralization by pascifists toward people who support Just War or fighting in the defense of the innocent that make me react the way I do. I also wanted to explain my importance of looking at entire Scripture rather than just Jesus’s words alone. For I see Jesus speaking in all of the bible not just the NT and I believe that the Trinity works together and seperate but they do nothing outside of the wills of each other. I think I explained this earlier and I’m not wanting to rehash this Bene in such a way as you feel all of those terrible things you feel. If I thought you would have taken these personal I would have rephrased them like I have the last few posts. Are we okay, broskie. :)

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Dave Warnock 03.31.06 at 10:51 pm

I had never heard of poutine before, so I looked it up on wikipedia. I hope it tastes better than it looks and that it makes life feel better.

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Beth 03.31.06 at 11:16 pm

I’m dying to try poutine - I bet it’s even better than parsnips.

Bene - we’re with you, hon, even if the Atlantic is between us!

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