Wood isn’t very happy about the state Christianity has got itself in
It is too late. We have this situation where the Calvinist evangelicals are major voices, who yet believe that they’re marginalised and persecuted. Hell, UCCF is the second largest student society in the UK, after the NUS itself. There’s a terrifying number of students who believe in a literal six-day young-earth creation. Fact is, liberalism is dying in our churches. In a few years, you’re going to have to be either a liberal or a Christian, with no crossover allowed.
And the most depressing thing about all this for me is that there’s so many people on both sides of the equation who think that it’s a good thing.
{ 20 comments… read them below or add one }
Chris T. 10.29.06 at 7:27 pm
I dunno about the UK, but in the US the liberal mainline’s problem is lack of seriousness about campus ministry. (Well, it’s one of the problems, anyhow.)
I served a campus ministry last year that had been decently funded since the 50s or 60s but for the last thirty years had been doing no Christian ministry and no ministry to students — it was all about interfaith, generally secular liberal activist stuff geared toward the wider community. A group of us came in, with me as director and two grad students as peer ministers, and turned the Christian ministry into something real — a worshiping community of about a dozen students. Now the denoms are cutting funding across the state and the board is making my successor’s job difficult (because he wants to minister to Christian students, not UU adults).
Without those mainline ministries on campus (and by and large they’re gone or turned evangelical), those college students are going to find other communities that don’t teach mainline values or theology.
Eugene McKinnon 10.30.06 at 3:53 am
Oh don’t be so certain about the demise of liberal Christianity yet. The Evangelicals are sliding into apostasy as well. I have seen time and time again a pastor skate around any passage that mentions Jesus Christ dying for our sins and emphasising doing good works in order to buy one’s way into heaven.
For the record Wood, most Evangelical fundamentalists are not Calvinist. They are Arminian. I walk their circles and now I am a token Calvinist in their midst.
Another thing. Liberal Christianity has not always been a good thing. Liberal Christianity of Harnack, Troeltsch, and Kittel in Germany produced positivism and Nazism. So I rejoice at the death of liberal Christianity we will never see Nazism again.
However I would love to do a thesis comparing Liberal Christians in Germany with Evangelicals in post-9/11 US. There is little difference.
Blessings,
Eugene McKinnon
Richard 10.30.06 at 8:31 am
Most evangelicals are Arminian?? You jest, surely?!
J 10.30.06 at 1:05 pm
I’m not sure where Eugene is, but I’d certainly agree with him that Evangelicals in the US are generally Arminian. There’s a mix, but I think that’s the predominant view. Just to clarify things, is your (Richard) view based on mainline denominations or all churches? I don’t know how common non-denominational megachurches are in the UK, but they’re quite common over here.
Wood 10.30.06 at 3:48 pm
They’re rare here. I can only think of one or two. And evangelicals, even the charismatics, are majority Calvinist in the UK. By a sizeable majority.
J 10.30.06 at 4:23 pm
An interesting contrast. Just as a side note (and let me know what you think Eugene), my guess is if you asked the vast majority of Christians here - and probably there - whether they were Calvinist or Arminian, you’d get a puzzled look and a shrug.
DH 10.30.06 at 4:32 pm
J and Wood I think you will find Evangelicals are correctly CalviMinian. In that God know everything but that forknowledge doesn’t go against peoples free will to choose. J, I think the “puzzled look” is indicative of the CalviMinian that is previlent as I explained.
Eugene 10.30.06 at 5:44 pm
Here on my side of the pond Evangelicals are Arminian. I am an exception to the rule because I am a Calvinist Evangelical. When I lived in Britain most of my UCCF friends were (in Wood’s defence) Calvinist or Charismatic. I didn’t get much shoulder shrugging when the question was asked, Calvinist or Arminian?
Sorry for confusing you J. My response was in three points and should not be construed as ambiguity or ambivalent. I believe that Liberal Christianity has taken a new form which we can call Evangelicalism. A great way to assess this is to look at how the sermons of Evangelicals have changed from doctrinally sound sermons on Christ’s atoning death into 10 steps for a good marriage. I still cannot find in the Bible Ten Steps to a Good Marriage. Like the Liberals of old who addressed social justice issues, the Evangelicals are now focusing on felt needs issues instead of preaching Christ and Him Crucified, something an Old School Evangelical Presbyterian believes is essential to the believer.
Blessings,
Eugene McKinnon
J 10.30.06 at 9:17 pm
I agree that the predominant view is “Calviminian” - the idea that Calvinism and Arminianism are in conflict presupposes things about God that I think are probably wrong, but any hybrid of the two necessarily comes closer to Arminianism (in my view anyway).
Back to the megachurches in the UK - are they pretty mainstream apart from the fact that they’re non-denominational, or are they branches of entities such as the Boston Church of Christ (to take one example)?
DH 10.30.06 at 9:27 pm
J, what is your take on this I said “In that God know everything but that forknowledge doesn’t go against peoples free will to choose.”? So I agree with you that the two are not in conflict but to say Calviminianism is closer to Arminianism seems strange and could you explain this because to me solely Calivinism or solely Arminianism are both wrong but that when the two are joined eliminating the incorrect theology of both then Calviminian seems correct explained as again “In that God know everything but that forknowledge doesn’t go against peoples free will to choose. What is your take?
J 10.30.06 at 11:56 pm
Basically, once you’ve decided anyone can be one of the elect, I think you’re functionally Arminian, though the prevalence of the “once saved, always saved” in American churches pushes the balance back a little.
Joel 10.31.06 at 12:13 am
I would agree that most American evangelicals, particulary those who sit in the pews, tilt toward Arminianism, perhaps with a flavoring of Calvinism. Now in the Southern Baptist Convention, the clergy may be evenly split between Arminian leaning and Calvinist leaning. Among Southern Baptist leadership, it appears that Calvinism may be gaining ground.
Actually, even within U.S. United Methodism, I detect that Calvinism is having a greater influence in the interpretation of Wesleyan theology by many UM conservative clergy. One reason is that conservative clergy and leadership try to distinguish themselves from liberals by claiming they believe in God’s sovereignty but that liberals don’t. To prove their point, they often cite Calvinist theologians to support their views.
PresterJosh 10.31.06 at 12:37 am
I’m from the SouthEastern US, and among evangelicals here, Arminianism definitely predominates. Of course, among the especially “hardline” evangelicals Calvinism does seem to be a higher proportion than in the evangelical population at large.
And personally, I rather dislike attempts to analyze Christianity according to the liberal/conservative model.
Eugene McKinnon 10.31.06 at 4:49 am
Now we Calvinists have really hit the big one. The UMC! George Whitefield would be proud. Buwhahahahahaha
Eugene McKinnon
Joel 10.31.06 at 8:35 am
One of the most interesting things to me is that several of the conservative UM pastors who want schism based on the idea that liberals aren’t true to the Discipline and Wesleyan heritage are themselves followers of R.C. Sproul. While one can and should read widely, an ordained United Methodist pastor cannot be both a follower of Sproul and true to his or her ordination vows.
DH 10.31.06 at 4:26 pm
Joel, why mention R.C. Sproul when he is a wonderful theologian? He may strongly disagree with liberal theology but that doesn’t mean he isn’t true to his orbination vows. I think many people have misconceptions about people who are so-called “Calvinist”. I think you will find that extreme Calvinism where there is no free-will and extreme Arminianism where God omnipotence is not there in the belief that God doesn’t know who will accept Christ. To me both are wrong in that there is free-will and God does know everything. Hense, I think, if asked honestly among ourselves some fomr of Calviminian in our views. If not it seems strange in light of Scripture.
Joel 10.31.06 at 4:57 pm
DH,
You have completely missed my point about R. C. Sproul. I have no criticism of the man and wasn’t referring to his ordination vows, but to those of United Methodist clergy. My point is restricted to United Methodist clergy, in fact. If they are true to their ordination vows, they cannot be other than some version of Wesleyan-Arminians. That doesn’t mean that I hold Calvinist Christians in low esteem.
DH 10.31.06 at 6:11 pm
I didn’t miss the point. My take is a person CAN be a member of the UM clergy and be like R.C. Sproul who happens to be (when you research it further) a Calviminian. When you research R.C. Sproul he is not a double-predestination Calvinist (aka Hyper-Calvinist).
I guess my question is do Wesleyan-Arminians believe that God doesn’t know who will accept or reject Christ? It seems odd if they believe that God doesn’t know as compared to knowing. I think this begs the question as to the misconception of predestination. People who are against predestination apply double-predestination to the whole group when in fact predestination only in fact refers to God’s forknowledge. To me both in the extreme are equally wrong. Do you have any insight on this for further clarification? Not all Calvinists and Arminians are the same but the extremes of both are wrong and un-Scriptural. Your thoughts. Interesting discussion.
Eugene McKinnon 11.01.06 at 6:14 pm
DH,
R.C. Sproul would not be amused if you call him a Calvimian. He is a five point Calvinist if you saw the recent video broadcast on http://www.ligonier.org.
And even R.C. Sproul would not give the time of day to a fence sitting Methodist. Well maybe William Willimon.
Eugene
DH 11.01.06 at 10:19 pm
I think Eugene R.C. Sproul believes in some level of free-will. I have read his books and listened to him. He may be more Calvinist than you but he’s definitely not adhere to double predestination or by another term hypercalvinism.
Eugene, do you have any insight or opinions on all of the other things I said? I said and asked so much more than just that.