Todd Bentley

by Richard on May 5, 2008

Fat Prophet and Mark Byron both comment on the ‘Florida revival’ being led by Todd Bentley. The revival meetings are being broadcast on God TV (cheesy music warning!), so I’ve seen a bit of this myself.

Mark avoids ‘taking sides’

I’m mugwumping on the theological merits of this. It’s hard to get objective information; you either have the Holy Spirit junkies who can’t get enough of Bentley and this “Florida Outpouring” or you have the heresy-hunters who train both barrels at anything charismatic and noteworthy.

What we do seem to have is something that could be the Toronto of the late 00s; TACF had to buy a conference center and convert it into a church to handle their crowds.

At least people will have better weather to visit this revival in. We’ll see how the charismatic pilgrims handle the “air you can wear” of a Florida summer.

FP is skeptically supportive and would be keen to get your comments at his blog

The other thing that amazes me is that people are travelling from across the world to Florida to be part of the anointing - there was a pastor there from England the other day when I switched on and he said that he had been watching on the TV at home in England and just felt he wanted to be part of this move of God.
I have over the years in pentecostal churches I have attended seen God move in peoples lives in a very tangible way and it would seem that this is happening in the Todd Bentley meeting so perhaps it is just me being a little sceptical due to my stiff British Upper Lip or of course it could be that I have some concern about the building up of peoples hopes in respect of being healed.

If you don’t have the delights of cable or satellite (or maybe lack the strange inclination to watch God TV), here’s a sample:

My take? Let’s say I have FP’s skepticism. If anyone wants to get me a ticket to Florida, I’d love to do a day or two’s blogging about this.

{ 97 comments }

1

Kim 05.05.08 at 9:35 am

Open visions and balls of fire.
God “prospering” folk with financial difficulties.
Broken bone sockets, rotator cuff problems, and - wait for it - “you with the growth”.

But there is one condition the Holy Spirit never seems to heal on these Christian reality TV shows (this one should be called “Hinn-Lite”): gullibilititus. On the other hand, perhaps I should pray to the Lord to mess with my “theological box”.

“Skepticism”? When I see Richard in the Chaplaincy tomorrow, unless he admits to a euphemism I shall break his arm - which he can then go get unbroken: “Bam!” (as the dude says).

2

Richard 05.05.08 at 10:24 am

A euphemism? Would I?!

I didn’t want to say more because I’m encouraging the conversation elsewhere. Though I’ve a feeling I’ll be returning to this one.

3

fatprophet 05.05.08 at 12:11 pm

Bam now that’s an interesting theological word! Sounds more like the sort of thing you get in the old Batman programmes - will he be using kapow and zadonk next?
I like the new medical condition as well gullibilititus.

4

PamBG 05.05.08 at 12:22 pm

Let’s look at a pattern of reasoning:

1) The Holy Spirit is only at work in the Church when one of the following is occurring (but preferably more than one): miraculous healings, being slain in the spirit, speaking in tongues, everyone getting high on a ‘hit’ from the Spirit (preferably accompanied by loud, extravert worship);

2) Since the Spirit is only present when these things are happening, more traditional denominations are devoid of the Spirit.

3) Therefore traditional denominations do not believe in the Spirit; if they did, they wouldn’t be traditional.

Just who, exactly, is it who is denying the Holy Spirit?

The person who denies that the Holy Spirit works quietly. The person who - by their practice - denies that the Holy Spirit has a role in sustaining as well as inspiring. The person who denies that sometimes life is just crap, but the Holy Spirit is there.

Do I believe that God heals people? I’ve seen it happen, but never suddenly in a prayer meeting. Do I believe this guy is doing God’s work? Sceptical. What’s he doing with the offerings for a start?

5

Mark Byron 05.05.08 at 3:39 pm

“What’s he doing with the offerings for a start?”

Paying the rental on the facilities, for starters. They wound up paying $15,000 for the Lakeland Center arena per night once they outgrew the 3,000-seat sanctuary in neighboring Auburndale.

I hear Pam’s grief about charismatics making conventional Christians seem second-class. As a charismatic-leaning Baptist (a.k.a. Bapticostal), I know that the Holy Spirit does move and work anywhere; you just don’t see the manifestations of it, nor are they expected.

A Baptist woozy after prayer will find a chair, while a charismatic will find their way to the floor and get credited as being “slain in the spirit.”

6

ee 05.05.08 at 9:02 pm

I find the juxtaposition of this entry next to your hymn of the day interesting. These ‘moves of God’ almost always seem to practically ignore the person of Jesus, whilst chucking in his name as a good luck charm or mantra. I remember my pastor at the time of the Toronto Blessing being very concerned by this and choosing ‘Jesus the name high over all’ at just about every service.

7

DH 05.05.08 at 9:31 pm

Mark, it is wonderful to find a fellow BaptiCostal as yourself. :) The numbers of us are few andfar between. However, I’m currently attending a Presbyterian church, if you can believe it. At the same time I consider myself BaptiNazaEvangeliCostal (So. Baptist=great at sharing the Gospel anf the need for Salvation, Nazarene=great in sharing the importance of being “Holy even as your Father in heaven is Holy”, Evangelical=preeminance of Jesus-Trinity-innerancy of Scripture-etc., Pentacostal=good at sharing the importance of ALL Gifts of the Spirit being applicable for today and doesn’t do what I call the “Holy black magic marker” when readin in reference to prophesy, discernment of Spirits or any other passages in reference to those things or similar to those things.
(Just some personal insight on myself for people to observe if interested). :)

8

Kim 05.05.08 at 9:35 pm

Thanks, Pam. As ever, you talk such sense.

Very quickly, here are just five reasons why this “signs and wonders-being slain in the Spirit” stuff is not just nonsense but dangerous nonsense.

(1) Its health-and-wealth linkage to faith is not only theologically - and pastorally - contemptible, it is, ironically, symptomatic of a profound cultural captivity.

(2) It is all about power, power, power. The authoritarian, controlling power, of course, of the master of ceremonies. But, further, exponents of the genre have actually spoken of the Holy Spirit himself - or rather itself - not only as an unstoppable “force” but as a weapon, a “gun”. But then, conversely - and illogically - if the gun doesn’t hit the target, the hyper-hyper Arminian accusation is made that there wasn’t enough faith.

(3) It is not, then, surprising that any evaluation of the phenomena, any asking awkward questions - what Paul would call “discernment” - are also taken to be a sign of disbelief, even the work of Satan (the Manichaeism of the movement is striking - and dreadful). One of the most menacing things here is the denigration of the mind, the intellect - and theology. Charlatans never have any.

(4) “Experience” is all, and the craving for the “supernatural” becomes obsessive. The New Testament emphasis on “sobriety” in the Christian life and what Pam refers to as the “quiet” work of the Spirit - see the “fruit of the Spirit” (Galatians 5:22ff.) and the “more excellent way” (I Corinthians 13) - are relegated to the area of “nominal” Christianity. The Fathers of the church had a word for this pathology: it is to be subject to the “passions”.

(5) Finally, check out the politics.

9

jan connolly 05.05.08 at 11:07 pm

hi, i am sitting on the fence right now with the whole bentley/florida outpouring phenomenon. if God is in this, i don’t want to judge wrongly. but although i’m trying to be open minded, i am struggling not to fall off the fence into the ‘anti’ camp. its good to see there is lots of discussion going on on the net…

all those thousands gathering now and caught up in the ‘atmosphere’, if God is really genuinely touching & anointing them, let me see it carry on after the revival meetings end. let me see the prophecies come true and JESUS Glorified and lives transformed. if not, the comedown is gonna be depressing for those who have thrown their hearts into all this.

anyway enough dribble from me. God bless you all

10

Bene D 05.06.08 at 12:12 am

I’m ashamed to be Canadian.

We exported this guy.
And he isn’t even getting warmed up. (Check his schedule - he’s the current hot celebrity on the ‘outpouring’ circuit)

The red flags are out and people need wisdom.
Bentley was convicted of child molestation and B & E prior to ‘conversion.’
If he has repented then what is past is past. He found his way out of a hell of a life, and into the arms of false angels, false prophets, profiteers and charlatans promoting a false religion.
He has been proven to be a liar, not on past legal conviction but by his current words and actions.
That is what we have to speak against.

These angels are Emma (Bob Jones angel from The Kansas City Prophets) and William Branham’s guides, which guarantees Bentley’s entrance into extreme neo-pente circles.
No doubt there will be other angels manifested as needed to keep the money coming in.

I hope you do say more Richard, and as strongly as possible.

DH, did you switch churches again? A few months ago you were Anglican.

This email was written May 1st…

Hi

I live in Lakeland and I have a few observations.

First, I work and live in this “revival” town and have yet to have anyone of the tens of thousands who have been “revived” contact any of my non-Christian friends. In fact they’re oblivious to the goings on as are most of the area, besides maybe seeing/hearing/reading some of the local media giving a token reporting of what is going on.

It seems to be a “groupie” revival, just for the “hungry” Christians, I guess. Thousands are spending their hard earned, or church’s, money to make the pilgrimage to the latest “outpouring.”

I understand people being hungry for God.

I believe God heals, delivers, and sets free those who call upon His Name. Otherwise, what are we praying for?

There is a spirit in Lakeland, but how much is of the Holy Spirit and how much is flesh?

I have been listening to Todd since about the first week of the revival, after a pastor friend forwarded an email from Stephen Strader, the pastor of Ignited Church, the host church for the “revival,” attached.

I was appalled that a pastor would send a 5 page long document as an email, about a “revival” without the mention of JESUS or the BIBLE, and with only mentioning God five times. But to make up for it, he mentions the name of TODD 23 times. Please, check it out for yourself.

I was immediately tempted to reply to that friend to not send me any more garbage emails like that, when I had the wisdom to share my response with my wife, and she said he wouldn’t understand, as he and several from his church were excited about this “revival.”

So what do I do, when people I know are engrossed with a “revival” that’s all about Todd, and what Todd is doing, how Todd’s seen angels, how Todd’s anointing is so wonderful, and how God is supposedly healing?

I decided to watch the revival services, as broadcasted by Ignited Church, and check it out for myself.

The worship was typical charismatic Pentecostal contemporary worship. And then Todd took over.

What was notable was the “angels” references throughout the “ministry” time of Todd. He did read from the pulpit, not from the Word of God, but from a letter of supposed prophecy about what God was doing, about the “healing angel” that supposedly accompanied Todd, as was supposedly the case with other historical figures in “healing revivals.”

What was and continues to be notably absent is any reason to bring a Bible to a service, any call for repentance or any call for holiness in the saints.

But there is a constant call to sew financially into this “revival,” to come to Lakeland to take some of this (Todd’s) anointing home with you, and to tell others about this “revival.”

And the altar call prayer went something like, Jesus, come into my heart, I need you, I need your healing, I need…..I want….I need… I want…I want…I need…I want……..thank you Jesus, amen. And then they were prayed for, many of Todd’s converts fell to the floor under the push/anointing of Todd, and then they were shortly picked up by the ushers to make room for Todd to pray for others, at the end of the service.

To be fair, I would like to add that in most of the “salvation” prayers that I’ve heard of Todd’s, he adds, “forgive me of my sins.”

I was a bit concerned at the lack of reverence for God, lack of emphasis on Jesus or God’s Word, and lack of any reference to repentance in the meetings.

But people were okay, because there were “signs” and “miracles” and “healings” that were apparent to them.

I decided to see if I could find out who Todd Bentley was.

The website he runs, freshfire.ca, is riddled with New Age and Gnostic teachings from Todd himself. Basically, there is simply heresy in many of his teachings.

I decided to share my newfound information with other people visiting the Ustream.tv page for Ignited Church, in the chat on the page.

Naturally those who adore Todd were opposed to any mention of his New Age, Gnostic teachings, or his heretical teachings about angels and speaking with dead people.

As the days went by, not much changed from Todd, but more and more became excited at the “revival, ” wanted to come to Lakeland to participate, and what’s better, those concerned about the revival began asking legitimate questions about Todd, his past, what was going on currently, and basically how is this “God.”

And then came the Ignited chatroom moderators, to ban by IP, anyone who dared question the revival.

One day, in the middle of the afternoon, I posted this:

Colossians 2:8, 18-19 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Two minutes later, I was banned from the chatroom, by IP.

That same evening, back with a new IP, I noticed others posting concerns and even more Scriptures. Banned.

But with the changes in the chatroom, along with the change in “revival” venue to Auburndale, along came those seeking to see if this was God, from around the world.

People hungry to see God truly move in their lives, and wondering if this were real.

I’ve had the honor of chatting with many of them, sharing the truth of Todd’s teachings and history, and pointing them to the Word of God.

And, since Ustream.tv is a video website, it allows users to comment on the videos/streams. I continue to post the truth about Todd as a comment to the Ignited Church’s broadcasts, as a user.

Now it’s approaching 8000 at the meetings, and they have to spend tens of thousands a night to host the event.

And an event it is, as people are coming to be touched, yet Lakeland is untouched.

Still my friends who are unsaved say they haven’t heard about the meetings, except that I’ve asked.

So much for shaking this city, or anything for that matter, except for those affected by Todd’s “ministry.”

This “spirit” that has descended upon Lakeland, has attracted thousands, and will continue, if what I read in the chatroom is correct, for no other reason than that thousands are planning to come.

Too bad the sheep have to be proven stupid again.

11

Bene D 05.06.08 at 1:04 am

Paul Cain, who confessed to alcoholism and homosexuality and who said he was going into a year of counselling showed up in Lakeland.

http://www.charismamag.com/display.php?id=10627

It was painful and bizarre even for the fan boys.
Cain has retracted his confession, says people were out to get him, he says he needs money. Bentley bought his ticket and flew him in. Cain has a ‘new’ angel.

Discernment 101. Why can’t people ask basic questions such as what is the doctrine of the preacher/teacher? What is the fruit in their life? What spirit do they claim to operate under? 2 John Matthew 7 1 Corinthians 12

When Bentley held meetings in Kelowna British Columbia, his victim’s parents saw the notices and came forward.
I’m not surprised he has chosen the southern US.
Rick Hiebert The Report News 30/04/2001:

“They were sexual crimes,” Bentley admits. “I was involved in a sexual-assault ring. I turned around and did what had happened to me. I was assaulted too.”

“I don’t like to talk about it publicly because it would hurt [my ministry ].” he concedes. “I don’t whip it out in the newspapers or on TV because people will go ‘Whaaa?’ I’ll say ‘I was in prison, period. Let’s move on.’”

His past may be dead and buried but his victim and family are still suffering. He’s writing a book. The people he is supposedly accountable to are not in BC and Charisma Magazine just wrote a puff piece on him.
Of course.

“Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.” - Col 2:18-19

12

Rachael 05.06.08 at 3:58 am

My mother went to this revival and came back a changed women. This truly is act of God and my family watches in every night. It is amazing, it brings tears to my mom’s, dad’s(who never cries), and my eyes to see a miricle happen right in front of you. To hear about the miracles in one thing but to see them is a whole different story. Todd Bentley is and amazing man and has an even more amazing gift from God!

13

fatprophet 05.06.08 at 7:20 am

I have been quite interested by the comments in relation to this ‘ministry’ and I am not surprised that the ministry is not affecting the locality it is based in. I suspect that Kim was right yesterday when he intimated that a lot of those attending were gullible people.
In respect of touching the locality I flicked on last night for about ten minutes (any more than that is too much) and Todd Bentley was talking about revival in Ireland that was happening due to pastors having been to Lakeland, but then he said something that really surprised me because he said that there had been meetings held for two weeks in Dudley in England and God was working in a mighty way. Now bearing in mind Dudley is around 8 miles from where I live you might have thought I would have heard something. I would have expected our local evening newspaper to have picked this up as it is a very good publication but no haven’t seen anything. Perhaps the Dudley situation is similar to Lakeland in that it is not actually touching the town it is in but gathering in those from far and wide as seems to be the case with the Lakeland.
I suppose the other thing that surprises me is that there are four contributors to this blog and others who all live within a fairly close proximity of Dudley and yet none of them seem to have picked this up. Perhaps it is only those who move in Pentecostal Circles who have heard about it! I will have to ask my sister in law as she belongs to a pentecostal church to see if she has heard about it.

14

Methodist Preacher 05.06.08 at 9:01 am

Like FP I am bemused to hear of a “revival” in Dudley.

I think there is a real problem of definition here. The British experience of revival can best be encapsulated by the methodical evangelism of the Wesleys where the extraordinary started in religious meetings and then found itself into every day life. The methodist revival had an impact that went far beyond the church walls

The modern American and pentecostal definition of a revival is a series of meetings featuring worship. These can happen within church walls and have a zero impact on the surrounding community or its culture.

Quite rightly many Pentecostalists will point out that we modern Methodists have difficulty with Acts Chapter 2. But remind them that the first act of the new disciples was to establish a primitive socialist community, or point to the role of Stephen in establishing a non-racist welfare programme and we are quickly told - as fast as any liberal theologian would - that the Bible has to be read in context! Why on earth does anyone think that Stephen was so obviously targetted by the local bourgeoise? He confronted their economic self interest.

I have been accused of “sitting on the fence” between the individual gospel of salvation through faith and the socalled “social gospel”. The trouble is I see no fence. They are both part of one field.

Fat Prophet I did a google and found this:

http://www.revivalfires.org.uk/index.html

I think it is simply a series of exciting meetings. Lets hope God blesses those who attend but I don’t expect there to be any wider impact - but we can hope and pray, the Black Country certainly needs it.

15

PamBG 05.06.08 at 9:06 am

fatprophet, I’ve not heard anything about it. But, as you say, I think these things tend to move in particular ‘circles’.

16

jon 05.06.08 at 10:53 am

To all the skeptics, Todd’s past does not matter.
The fact that it all happened *before* he was saved is enough.
That God could turn around someone “like that” is more proof
that God is using him. Sounds like Saul/Paul.

We all need God’s grace, and it makes me so happy that God is
using an uneducated man with his background.

Todd associating himself with Paul Cain is a similar reminder of God’s
grace. I know that this charismatic style is offputting to more traditional
christians, but do you really expect a powerful visitation of God to be
not “charismatic” ? Seriously ?

17

Mark Davies 05.06.08 at 2:24 pm

Oh dear - all the people going on about Todd’s past. Paul the evangelist before he became struck down with blindness was a muderer and pursecutor of Christians. However he qualified to write some two thirds of the New Testament and also considered himself boastful when it came to matters of Christ, so please don’t go on about Tods’s backround. Peter was a fisherman as were many others so they were probably not very theologically qualified. And where does it say that when Jesus went around delivering and healing people that it was all done in a quite and orderly manner. I don’t think so somehow. Revival will be messy - bring it on.

18

Ivan The Crank 05.06.08 at 2:31 pm

I am pastor of a United Methodist Church only 45 miles from Lakeland and my son attends college in Lakeland and this is the first I’ve heard of Bentley and this “move of God.” (Yes, my name should be Thomas - I am skeptical)

I have no doubt that God heals people physically; what I have a problem with is when the annointed healer ends up getting more credit and attention than the One who gave the gift. When Jesus healed, he avoided the notariety as much as possible.

When I hear of movements like this, I wonder what the long-term impact is on the spiritual lives of people, not just the physical. Afterall, Lazarus died again sometime after Jesus raised him from the dead. Physical healing is temporary at best and a distraction from finding wholeness at worst. My hope is that after people visit the Bentley revival that they will find their way into a communithy of faith where they will be nurtured as disciples of Jesus Christ, not just bask in the afterglow of a healing at the hands of Bentley.

One last thought; several years ago there was the Brownsville Revival centered in Pensacola, FL. Is that still going on? What were the long term impacts on the world for Christ as a result? Are more people disciples of Christ today as a result?

19

Bene D 05.06.08 at 2:45 pm

Alright Jon, lets take it from a different angle.

I certainly have pentecostal friends, and I’m not looking at this denominationally.
The charismatic style is offputting in a none-starter.
Try charismatic pretense and counterfiet is offputting and not of God.

The Bentley meetings are in a heretical definable movement and it’s called Third Wave, Latter Rain.
This calcuated decision to hold meetins in certain places in the US and moving vaguely into the UK, Australia and New Zealand is being called Winds of Change.
Bentely has been saved a few years, he has gotten all his tattoos etc in preparation for his ministry btw.
Discern what he is doing and saying now.

Read some history of these kinds of revivals, there is nothing new about this
The Shakers, The French Prophets, Azuza, Brampton, Lakeland, Toronto Blessing, Gainsville. Read what was written by The Wesleys, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield etc.

Passion for God is not a sign of a true prophet or minister.
Read what Pentecost accomplished in the bible.
Measure up current claims.

Look at Bentleys teachings and behavior and measure it up by God’s word.

A.W. Tozer said: As strange as it may seem, the danger today is greater for the fervent Christian than for the lukewarm and the self-satisfied.

I’m going to post the Bentley ‘revivial characteristics in the next comment, measure them up against God’s word.

20

Bene D 05.06.08 at 2:49 pm

This is from an article by Jewel van der Merwe

Show this to me in God’s Word, people like van der Merwe have studied these guys for years. Show me in the bible.

THE NEW REVIVAL CHARACTERISTICS

1. It is a revival of the prophets that use the Holy Scriptures deceitfully.
2. It is a revival of “sorcery” (the magic art of manipulating people). People are being manipulated, sometimes by fear and other times by sheer deception, into blindly receiving unscriptural views.
3. It is a revival that wants to see the walls of the Churches and Denominations crumble and come under the authority, structure and network of the New Breed.
4. It is a revival of a New Breed that discriminates against Israel and the part of the Church that doesn’t go along with their teaching.
5. It is a revival that rejects the literal Rapture of the Church.
6. It is a revival that rejects sound doctrine as a basis for unity.
7. It is a revival that teaches that it is wrong to judge the prophets according to the Word of God.
8. It is a revival that says that the Church (corporately) is the literal presence of Christ, so don’t look for another.
9. It is a revival that says, “Touch not God’s anointed.” The interpretation being: No matter what is said or how wrong it is, do not question. Christians dare not question or criticize the unscriptural utterances and practices of the prophets, for if they do, they are judged worthy of punishment.
10. It is a revival obsessed with a New Breed of people and a political agenda on earth.
11. It is a revival bent on turning the youth into a militant people with a war-like mentality designed to take dominion of the world and if need be - by force.
12. This new revival owes its character to a group of specific persons who are misinterpreting the Bible, and like the cults, supplementing it with their own dreams, visions and mystic ideas. Christian, if you fall for their doctrine, you are perfectly set up for deception. Be careful you are not swept off your feet into the great deception - the lie.

21

Bene D 05.06.08 at 3:11 pm

Ivan, there has been a lot of bad fallout from Brownsville, and there continues to be. Example: Dr. Micheal Brown who was in at the beginning had a public and rage filled falling away with fellow ‘leaders’ over money.
He’s doing his own anti-gay ministry now.
He’s on-line, one of the nastiest, most mean, arrogant political people I’ve had the misfortune to run across. It is not a happy ending or Christ centred by any stretch, the discord and discontent sowed remains.

Believers caught up were sincere seekers, that is what makes this movement and the deception so painful.

The internet is a good tool, there are plenty of people willing to testify who walked away from Brownsville, disallusioned, wounded, having lost a great deal - able to see their seeking and love for God got them away from God. Sadder but wiser, and doing what they can to warn others while getting on with serving Christ.

22

Gary 05.06.08 at 3:42 pm

YOU ARE BLINDED BY LIES, DECEPTIONS AND YOUR FLESH IF YOU BELIEVE WHAT TODD BENTLEY AND HIS HERETICS ARE DOING IS OF GOD. THERE HAVE BEEN THOUSANDS OF FALSE PROPHETS AND HERETICS IN HISTORY LEADING PEOPLE INTO DOCTRINES OF DEVILS AND BLASPHEMIES, TODD BENTLEY IS NO DIFFERENT AND WILL FALL UNDER THE JUDGMENT OF GOD IF HE DOES NOT REPENT AND PUBLICLY DENOUNCE HIS SATANIC DOCTRINES AND DECEPTIONS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. RETURN TO THE HOLY BIBLE AND ITS SOUND DOCTRINES OR YOU WILL FALL WITH ALL THESE HERETICS WHO ARE THE ENEMIES OF GOD SERVING ANOTHER GOSPEL LEADING OTHERS INTO DESTRUCTION.

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers….Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.

Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness

PASTE ALL OF THESE QUOTES IN TODD BENTLEY’s CHAT TO WARN THE DECEIVED OF THE WORD OF GOD THROUGH THE BIBLE, PERHAPS A FEW WILL HAVE EARS TO HEAR AND REPENT OF TODD BENTLEY’s BLASPHEMIES. HIS HEALINGS AND MIRACLES ARE ALL A LIE AND TODD COULD NOT SHOW ANY PROOF OF HEALING OF ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY RELATED TO A BIBLICAL EXAMPLE OF A HEALING IF HE WAS PUT TO ANY KIND OF SCIENTIFIC TEST. EVEN JESUS HIMSELF WHEN HE HEALED SOMEONE TOLD HIM AFTERWARDS TO GO TO THE PRIEST TO PROVE WHAT HAD BEEN DONE SO THAT THERE MAY BE WITNESSES. TODD IS ONLY AFTER YOUR MONEY AS MOST ALL TV PREACHERS ARE AND LEECHES OFF YOUR DESPERATION AND THE MADNESS OF VARIOUS PENTECOSTAL FALSE GOSPELS, IF YOU ONLY KNEW WHAT WAS INSIDE THE MINDS OF THESE HERETICS AND THEIR TRUE INTENTIONS YOU WOULD BE SHOCKED. THERE ARE SOME GOOD DOCUMENTARIES OUT THERE EXPOSING SOME OF THESE GUYS ON FILM SUCH AS “the great apostasy the last sign” from cultlink.

All you fellow Christians who believe in the sound doctrines of the Bible and who know video stuff should produce your own documentaries as well.
The mouths of these deceivers must be stopped.

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Gary 05.06.08 at 3:51 pm

I forgot to tell you, if you post ANY bible verse such as the ones above, or post any warning in the chat room and stay in it longer then 3 seconds after you post it, you will be permanently banned and have to get a vpn or other proxy in order to enter the chat room again, so when pasting verses or warnings, paste, then immediately leave and come back in 5 minutes, then it will be harder for Todd’s Bible denying heretic chatroom overlords to get a hold of your ip.

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Methodist Preacher 05.06.08 at 3:52 pm

I’ve done a little more research on the revival in Dudley and posted an item on my blog. I’ve also invited the organisation to respond if they think I have misunderstood my take.

My understanding of healing is that it is a corporate rather than individual gift within any given body of believers. I’m always a little sceptical when it focusses on one individual.

It is good that this issue is now being discussed by Methodists even on Connexions! Healing seems to have fallen out of Methodism even though there is a goodish webpage on out denomonination site and a section in the prayer book.

Whilst we pray for the sick, we don’t often offer prayer for healing, for which there is a huge appetite.

Perhaps there will be some surprises this Pentecost?

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Richard 05.06.08 at 4:12 pm

Where do we not often offer prayer for healing? Some of us do!

Gary, thanks for dropping by. But please don’t shout. There’s no need.

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PamBG 05.06.08 at 4:43 pm

Where do we not often offer prayer for healing?

This is what I want to know. I thought healing services were pretty common-place.

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Richard 05.06.08 at 4:49 pm

Sitting at hospital beds and praying for the healing of their occupants is also part of the routine.

In any case, what’s the difference between praying for the sick and praying for healing? I can’t work that one out.

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Kim 05.06.08 at 5:03 pm

Healing services are very commonplace. They are called eucharists.

And yeah, Gary, what a barrage. But as Mark Twain said: “Thunder is impressive, but it’s the lightning that does the work.”

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DH 05.06.08 at 5:11 pm

Someone said one gets skeptical of people when healing is individual as opposed to corporate. How about when Jesus healed the sick and the times when Jesus healed individual people? The pool of Shiloam, women with an issue of blood, the raising of the dead of Lazarus, etc.

Kim, helaing services are only Eucharists: I’m not defending this guy but I do believe that Salvation by Faith in Christ alone is healing but I also believe healing services can be for physical healing as well. If Jesus did physical healings while on earth I don’t see why people can not have giftings where physical healing will occur. Heck, the Apostle Paul mentioned gifts of healing, prophesy, dicernment of spirits, tongues, etc. Now I know many people in the extreme do these things in the fleash but that doesn’t diminish that gifts are for today.

Richard, I think praying for healing and praying for the sick are different in that praying for the sick are by those who don’t have a gift of healing who are asking God to heal the person. Praying for healing are by those who God gives a gift of healing to use solely for God’s glory to physically heal a person.

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Bene D 05.06.08 at 6:48 pm

Ivan, if you are in the Lakeland area you could go and give us a first hand account.

FP, MP, Pam you could go to Dudley and give us a first hand account.
You are mature grounded believers in Christ and your observations would hold weight.

Why not?

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PamBG 05.06.08 at 7:14 pm

In any case, what’s the difference between praying for the sick and praying for healing? I can’t work that one out.

With tongue slightly in cheek, I think that the difference is that when we pray for the sick we ‘don’t really believe’ that God can heal them. ;-)

I think that there is actually an argument for a dedicated healing service. I believe that intercessory prayer is an act of holding a person and their concerns within the love of God. A healing service allows the person themselves to experience the prayer - if you see what I mean.

But, as Christians, we have to understand that we are always praying for God’s will to be done. That’s why I’d be loathe to go up to an unbeliever and tell them ‘I’ll pray that your terminal cancer is cured’. When we are praying for the healing or cure (which I think is different from healing) of a person, I think they themselves need to understand that sometimes God says ‘no’.

I was very persuaded by the argument that this is akin to sorcery. ‘Jesus of Nazareth I know, but who are you.’

Bene D, I’m not going to Dudley because I have better things to do. I believe that God can heal and if he uses this man to heal people, then I pray that they may be blessed and come to the full knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Tara 05.06.08 at 7:18 pm

It’s ok to be skeptical, but like the old saying goes, don’t knock it till you try it. You can’t never go and say that it is not real. You have to go and experience it for yourself. People are not Todd Bentley junkies. It’s not about him, It’s that the presence of God is so strong in these meetings that that is where you want to be. Not worshiping Todd, just Jesus. People from all walks of life there for one reason, to worship God. It’s not just there, it’s everywhere. People are getting excited about God and what He is doing. All I can say is that it is awesome. The music is NOT cheesy as you would say. It is awesome and takes you into a mode of worship. As for the money comment, nothing goes to him. It goes to pay for the facilities, equipment, and to feed his staff. Mr. Bentley receives his financial support from his ministries in Canada. Everyone should just go and give God a try, then take the annointing home with you.

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Anonymous 05.06.08 at 7:25 pm

The reason i am writing this is to let people know my experence when i went to the revival. more than one time.When i arrived in Auburndale i stood in a large line for quite some time then a man came out and said to leave if we wanted We will have a new service monday we are now full.So i stayed and waited as people left they allowed people to entewr 2 or 3 at a time.After i made it in.The band was playing music and talking to the crowd of people this was hyping the crowd up.Than another person came out to speak to the crowd of people even hyping them up more like at a pop festival where the anouncer comes out and hypes up the crowd and works them hard till the band comes out to play.Then Todd walked up and started talking. He called out for people to come up there but at that time they would not let hardly anyone up there they had several people blocking you from entering the stage.I tried to get up there and was not allowed to all they were interested in was testimonium .They had people with pen and paper asking the people questions to see if they would let them up on the stage.Questions like were you healed what happen what did you feel can you bend show me. ,twist,do push ups,run if the person said they were healed and showed them they could run,bend,or what ever, after they screened them very very well then they would allow them up on the stage where Todd would talk to them but he had nothing to lose by this, because the person up there said they were healed than he would push on them or blow at them and say something depending on what was wrong with them.So i am sure it did’nt take the people long to figuire out very few would get on that stage with out telling the people who screened them a great story and how you were healed or in the process of being healed.If your story was not good enough you still didnt get on stage.And people were there to have Todd lay hands on them and be healed.So my opinion is that people would give him what he wanted to hear to get up there on stage anything to get him to lay hands on them.After the TV show was over they asked for money which i know it cost money for him to be here and pay all of his workers.That night he had 2 lines of people come to him and he touched all of the crowd as they rushed by him quickly just to see a very few fall from the power.That night he talked about pain medicine and said to get off of it and said diabetes would be healed ,high blood pressure, and several others. When Todd put his hands on me he did say Healed.So the next 4 days i went off of all my medications and belived i was totaly healed. The next day i was in pain from not taking my pain medicine,then my blood pressure went up along with my sugar but i still held on rebuking the pain and sickness i was having and my eyes went blury from not taking my medicine for my diabetes.So i wrote god tv and told them what was going on and asked them if i should continue off my medicine but they never called or e-mailed me back.So i though if i went back and prayed harder i would be healed so i went to there lakeland service.Any way i have been touched by Todd 3 times now and i am not going back there is no need to.And no i am still sick. You know what he is doing is not all bad some are giving there lives to god and they are praying in jesus name and they gather together and sing.Even though there is not that much preaching there.And my own opinion there is not much healing going on there either.If there is any its from jesus and all the people praying together from a huge fellowship.But as far as todd i can only tell you my experence and i dont like to judge people at all. All i know is i was there and not healed and had my son with me who has bad eyes and he was driving, on our way home and i told him to take off his glasses and he did and put them back on right away .I asked him why did you put your glasses back on he said because i cant see .I have seen several people return in there wheel chairs and others familiar faces there looking to be healed.I belive that if todd didnt block the stair case with his people which reminded me of bouncers and detectives. And let people come up there freely with out stoping them and interrogating them ,that you would not hear all these testimonies.And as for miracles did i see any all of the times i was there No i don’t belive so.Take what i say with a grain of salt, all i can tell you i am speaking the truth. I was there for what ever its worth. Good Luck

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DH 05.06.08 at 7:28 pm

Pam, wow, you had some wonderful things to say here on this one. I really liked your statement with regard to “praying for unbelievers”. It shows that with regard to unbelievers that we should focus on them becoming Believers first and in conjunction with that their particular healing or help regarding a particular concern. Your last sentence was worded perfectly. I couldn’t state it better myself.

I will say that when done not under the power of the Holy spirit and for satans glory that it can be sorcery. However, if one is doing these under the power and Glory of Christ then it is a gift of the Spirit. I believe that Gifts of the Spirit are applicable for today. I don’t take a “black magic marker” to those passages where Paul mentions the Gifts of the spirit.

Pam, loved your response. :)

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fatprophet 05.06.08 at 8:23 pm

Bene D if you had seen the real me you would certainly say that my opinion would carry some weight - like Pam I do have other things to do and if Dudley is anything like what I see on TV then I am not really sure I would want to be there.

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DH 05.06.08 at 8:50 pm

I want to get something straight. My statements should never be used to support Paul Cain or anyother who might (I say might) be doing things in the flesh as opposed to under the power of the Holy Spirit. I’m just saying we shouldn’t “throw the baby out with the bathwater” when Scripture makes it clear that Gifts of the spirit are for today. I have heard long before Bene stated this regarding Paul Cain. I was at the service when he got ousted so I know. So I want to make clear that any “work” done in the “flesh” should be looked at accordingly as what Pam said. However, “gifts” are for today and that includes ALL gifts of the Spirit.

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Bene D 05.06.08 at 11:41 pm

“Mr. Bentley receives his financial support from his ministries in Canada”

Really Tara?
And you happen to know that how?

I just phoned them because I can’t find their listing with Revenue Canada.

I asked for their reg number and category designation.

They didn’t get back to me so I phoned Revenue Canada.

Their registration number is 880636428 RR0001 Their category is 47
Fresh Fire Ministries
Abbotsford, B.C
V2T 6R3

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/

And their 2006 tax return is very interesting.
Very interesting.

And by the time they’ve done their 12 city US buddy tour that was er, prophecied and taken the show on the road to the UK this summer, I’d love to see their 2007 return.

Richard, Kim, Joel et al, you in the wrong end of the religion business;^) Oo-err Missus!

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Not Real Sure 05.07.08 at 2:02 am

I am NOT a skeptic, but a reader of the Word of God. And I must set this service up against the Word. And I have watched EVERY single service. And I can say, there is a nudge of the Holy Spirit saying, WATCH with eyes to see and HEAR with ears to hear. Does this mean it’s NOT of God. I don’t know. I am keeping eyes and ears open. However, Todd never gives the Word. And the Word is NEVER lifted up. When someone comes on the platform and IS terminally ill, or has cerbral palsy or is completely deaf or has blind eyes, they give a testimony, then Todd talks to them, then Todd prays, and when the healing isn’t OBVIOUS, he moves on!!!!! He leaves that poor person standing or laying on the platform and we don’t get the priviledge of praising the Lord for a healing. Because there was not a healing. Hello!!! Jesus prayed and they were healed. There was NO doubt!! The shadows of the Apostles fell on people and they were HEALED. NOT MAYBE, but healed. And they SPOKE the Word. Look at Peter’s message in Acts. Look at Stephen’s message in Acts before he was stoned. THE WORD THE WORD!! They spoke and preached the Word of God. His Word is truth and freedom. I believe this is hype and though some are saved and set free, that too is in the Word. Jesus said, they mean it for profit, but people are saved anyway. So that is what we need to praise Him about. The souls that have been saved during this convention. And we need to pray they find a good church. Jesus said that even if the Word is being preached for profit, at least it’s being preached. So at least SOME are being saved, which is the greatest miracle of all!! A life born again. The Bible says “And greater works then these shall you do because I go to the Father”. I believe that those GREATER works are salvations!!! But hopefully people STOP letting the “Can you FEEL that??” as Todd keeps saying, and instead, GO TO THE WORD. Is this in line with Jesus, the Apostles or Paul. I don’t really know yet!! The Bible said, He spoke the WORD and they were healed!! There is NO Word of God being delivered. No lifting up of His Word and even in Psalms it says His Word is above His Name!! So I guess I have to hear the Word of God and Jesus being exalted and then I will believe!! Is this just Suggestive excitement?? I hope not!! And we need to pray mightily for those who are being saved. Like I said, I am not a skeptic, but I do think we need to check all this against His word that NEVER changes!!

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Deception Sucks 05.07.08 at 6:32 am

I am not sure how I stumbled on this Blog but I feel obligated now to comment. I need to lay some things out- I have first hand knowledge and can elucidate if need be. Todd Bentley is not of God.

1. Todd has stated in his own words that he is accompanied by an Angel named Emma who is a beautiful woman in a long white dress who floats
off the ground when she walks. If you have ever studied the occult- Emma O is another name of Satan. There is no scriptural support for “female” angels nor are we to have this type of interaction with them.

2. The emphasis is always on the experience- the feelings- the visions- the trips to the third heaven but NOT on scripture. In fact often these visions and prophesies that the angels give him are contrary to scripture.

3. Jesus himself visits him frequently- wow- blow me down..according to Todd Jesus has bambi eyes. He also has stated that he has 10 rainbows eminating from him and that there are giant bumblebees in heaven.

4. check out this video- then compare it with scripture http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/3399535/

5. Todds spiritual father is Bob Jones who has had women strip naked to receive prophesies and has also been hospitalized for mental illness. Bob claims that he goes up to heaven at least once a day often more and that he is regularly visited by Jesus and Angels.

6. Todd claims that Bob introduced him to his angel Emma.

7. Todd also claims that he has the angel of William Branham and Katherine Kulman.

I have so much more I could write- I was taken in by these people- and I have first hand knowledge of many things that are outright occultish.

“Do not let anyone disqualify you by making you humiliate yourself and worship angels. Such people enter into visions, which fill them with foolish pride because of their human way of thinking. They do not hold tightly to Christ, the head. It is from him that all the parts of the body are cared for and held together. So it grows in the way God wants it to grow.” — Colossians 2:18-19, NCV.

“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” (Matthew 24:24)

Please dont be taken in.

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Pastor GaryB 05.07.08 at 3:16 pm

Okay so I have watched it over and over. I have seen the days of Charasmatic renewal, Toronto, Rodney, the Gold-dust, the brownsville, the Morning start prophetic movement, the rise in worship ministries throughout the world and now the Todd Thingy!

To be honest even as a full time Christian minister of worship and youth and being around for a long time and now calling myself a penticostacharasmatievangelicamethodisiamalbanisticarminumyepiscopalian. Is there any I missed? Anyway this one like a few of the rest has e a little concerned.

Where is the fruit? What really is revival? If this is revival then Benny Hinn’s crusades have been revivals for 30 years. Why is it everytime these guys who get up have to say that what they are about to say came from a visitation form the Lord or an angel. Are they so dumb they cannot take the scruptures and deduct what they actually mean. I mean the faith movement (otherwise known as give us your money to help fund our large ministry cars, homes and church buildings), does the same thing. It says that what it is saying or doing is from God. How can we honestly critic or judge that? If Todd says it is from God we are made to feel that it is speaking against the very anointed people of God if we criticize.

Watching the other night he was praying for people saying take some of that Bam and some OOH and some more bam. Now someone please explain band and OOh. Bam over here is Scotland is not a very nice word. So that right away can cause an offence. If you call someone a Bam over here you are calling them an idiot. So to us he is saying take some of that idiot stuff.

Sorry for ranting but this is just another one of those two year fads that the crazimatics go through. I love seeing God heal the sick, I love powerful worship times with God speaking to the body through the gifts. But even then we are told look lets not labour the fact let just two or three at the most speak. We need to be careful with gifts and callings as some people when they get a position misuse their gifts and that is dangerous.

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Deception Sucks 05.07.08 at 4:22 pm

Also can I add that the Holy Spirit is not given for our entertainment!!

These guys are very well connected to one another and - Rick Joyner of Morningstar has even been to Hitler’s bunker to ummm pray. I am sure the spirit of God is very strong down in Hitler’s bunker- NOT. He is also heavily into the Knights of Malta. I was part of his ministry school and rubbed sholders with a lot of these so called men of God. It has taken me years of study and prayer to really understand what happened to me there. It seemed everyone that had anything to do with that ministry had their life fall apart. I beleive in God and His gifts of the Spirit but what I witnessed was not GOD. On one occassion Leonard Jones the worship leader was “singing int the spirit” and said the following. “here comes the son all dressed in Black…oh stinking death we drink your cup” then he went into the Beatles song “Here comes the Sun”. There is so much mind control and witchcraft. In fact witches and Satanists regularly came to the meeting and Joyner said he did not have a problem with it. I mean what Satanist would feel comfortable hanging out drinking coffee in a service where the TRUE spirit of God was moving.

These guys are well connected and part of THE end time deception- they have stong ties to the governement as well. Joyner has a former member of the CIA on staff. Paul Cain met with Sadaam Hussain and I was in the meeting where Joyner talked about this.

Joyner and some of his staff regualry scour the internet for “negative press” then they have their cronnies write “disinfo” peices. It is a tactic to sow confusion in the mind of those that are starting to question. For example if someone like myself posts something they will have one of their “disinfo agents” for lack of a better term, post things that are very positive about them. This serves two purposes- one, it sows confusion- two- it softens the Truth. When our minds here one thing and then the opposite we immediately seek to find a middle ground. These people know what they are doing and are well trained in mind control.

The Joyners live in Moravian Falls in the mountains of NC. I have been on that property numerous times. They used to say that they would see angels all over the property dressed in Pilgrims outfits. Like God’s Holy angels have nothing better to do than to don pilgrims outfits and scare the crap out of people. ….Well I need to get off of this…it is just getting me all worked up again.

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Wood 05.07.08 at 4:27 pm

“Well I need to get off of this…it is just getting me all worked up again.

You think?

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Practical Comfort 05.07.08 at 4:40 pm

You guys are making me tired. *little smile*

1st: if you are offened by whats going on in Fla then perhaps we need to re think what it means to die to self.

2nd: How big is our God? For me he is limitless nothing is impossible, no matter what what adjenda Todd Bentley has there are going to be people that will repent and give their hearts to Christ. So who is going to disciple those people and pray for them?

3rd. If we really have a problem with Bentley, his style, his background, the Bible is very specific on what we should do to address this issue privately before the church in love and mercy.. I havent seen this suggested among any of the critics who say they are devout followers of Christ posting on these blogs or any others. and Last I offer up these verses.:

“And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
“But if it be of God, ye can not overthrow it; lest ye be found even to fight against God.”
Acts 5:38-39

“Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.” 2 Timothy 2:14

shhhhh be still and know God.

We are directed to test the spirit not criticize the man.

While bragging is a horrid form of pride, criticism is its brother and worse still, a highly destructive form of pride at that.
If you are concerned about what you are seeing and not understanding then pray about it. God keeps his promises and will give you wisdom.

If you truly trust God, then give your concern to him and let him handle things his way, least you show yourselves faithless and marked as hypocrites. How then, does that glorify God?

respectfully submitted

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Ivan The Crank 05.07.08 at 6:00 pm

After reading all the entries on this, I’m beginning to think that 45 miles from Lakeland is close enough to Mr. Bentley, thank you very much. I’ll pray about going to visit the revival, but my inclination is to not waste my time. It appears that several of the above entries are from people with very first-hand knowlege, most of whom have issued warnings.

Several years ago when the image of the Virgin Mary mysteriously appeared on the windows of an office building in St. Petersburg or Clearwater and thousands of people started flocking there for healings, signs and wonders, I had a conversation with Father John Giel, Priest at St. Paul’s Catholic Community in Leesburg, FL. I asked him what he thought about the image and the attention it was getting and he remarked something to the effect that “if Catholics would show this much interest in participating in the regular life of the church, its liturgies and sacraments, there would probably be very little interest in visiting “images” of the Virgin.”

I guess the converse could also be true that if the Church in all its various forms would faithfully live out the Christ’s mandate to go into all the world, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned and essentially be the body of Christ in this world, there wouldn’t be very long lines for Mr. Bentley either.

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Curt Parton 05.07.08 at 8:13 pm

I just stumbled upon this blog. I had never heard of Todd Bentley, but someone has asked me my opinion so I’m doing my best to check these things out. I’m not going to comment yet on this ministry, but I feel the need to respond to Practical Comfort’s post.

I believe you are in error in your use of Scripture. The passage you specified from Acts 5 is quoting the counsel of a Pharisee named Gamaliel. We can debate the wisdom of his advise, but this attitude he is suggesting is not a clear teaching of Scripture. It is not confirmed anyplace in the Bible, nor can it be demonstrated in the ministry of Christ or those of His apostles. Paul never takes a “wait and see” approach when it comes to potential heresy. He opposes false teachers by name (in 2 Timothy 2, which you also reference) and goes so far as to claim that anyone who proclaims another gospel is accursed (Galatians 1:6-10). He tells the Ephesian elders to be on their guard and to protect the sheep from wolves who would arise from within their midst (Acts 20:26-32). The direct opposition of false teachers and leaders is a consistent theme in his ministry. Even Peter is confronted directly when in error (Galatians 2:11-21).

To comment on your specific points:

1. Are you suggesting that if one has died to self, one cannot be offended? What of Christ being offended? What of Paul? If we have died to self, shouldn’t we, in fact, be offended by what offends God? Do not false teaching and manipulative ministry practices offend God? Isn’t the question actually one of the nature of this man’s ministry?

2. Yes, regardless of Todd Bentley’s agenda there will be many whom God will touch. I think others have expressed the same concern for the solid, biblical discipling of those who are affected by this ministry.

3. Actually, 1 Timothy 5:19-21 seems to indicate that those who minister prominently and publicly must be corrected publicly. While some opposition may have deteriorated into petty, personal attacks, most of the concern seems to be focused on the soundness of Bentley’s teaching and the authenticity of his ministry. Such a desire for clarity and discernment is not only appropriate, it is essential.

Blessings,
Curt

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fatprophet 05.07.08 at 9:11 pm

I have been careful not to be critical of the Todd Bentley meetings, but I think my original position of querying some of what I have seen and heard is the reaction of a reasonable person who has had some experience of Pentecostal Churches and understand something about the gifts of the spirit and more importantly the fruit of the spirit.
In my early days of attending a Pentecostal church there was often a message in tongues (always the same person) followed by an interpretation of the message by another person in the congregation (again always the same person) and I began to think thy the official speaker in tongues. After one meeting I spoke to one of the deacons and explained that on that morning I really felt that I had the interpretation of the message but had not done anything about it because of my thought that it was only the two normal people who could do this. I have to say I also felt physically sick because it was as if I was holding something in my mouth that really needed to come out. The deacon took some time to explain that there was neither an ‘official’ speaker or interpreter and that I should have just opened my mouth and let it go. I did on other occasions interpret messages in tongues and have done so on a couple of occasions at our church when one of our ladies has spoken in tongues.
I am quite open to the moving of the Holy Spirit and believe that what we do should bring glory to God and be edifying to the congregation. This is part of the reason I have raised questions.
Last night I flicked on to the God channel to see Todd Bentley mime the removal of a pin from a hand grenade and throw it into the congregation shouting baboom - not sure about this and from my own personal perspective do not feel it is bringing glory to God but hey I am sure someone out there will say I am being hypercritical of a good brother who is doing a mighty work.
The other thing that bothered me a little last night was a number of people came onto the platform who appeared to be in the midst of an epileptic seizure, while Todd and one of his assistants were also twitching as if they had an extreme nervous debility. Again and I say this from a purely personal perspective I find it hard to believe that God would want us to appear to be in the midst of a fit when he is giving us a blessing.
On a positive side, in case other readers think I am very negative I am impressed that every person who goes down on the platform is covered by a piece of cloth - I have never seen this done before and it does protect peoples modesty especially if they are thrashing around the floor.
I know too that I don’t have to watch this programming but I keep going back to see if there is anything that will change my scepticism to a more positive view.

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Wood 05.07.08 at 9:19 pm

And there I was wondering what my next editorial was going to be about.

Thanks, lads.

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Wood 05.07.08 at 9:19 pm

(And lasses, obviously.)

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Lee 05.07.08 at 10:41 pm

Hi I’m new to the site and have read all the comments with interest. The One I agreed with wholeheartedly was Practical Comfort-WELL SAID. I don’t think it is for us to judge-watching Bentley and Hinn has me uplifted, encouraged and skeptical all at the same time!
But they both put out an altar call and people are getting saved. And as we all know-that is the greatest miracle of all.
Let’s not spend too much energy running it all down-let’s pray that lives will be touched and that people will use discernment.
God Bless

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kris 05.07.08 at 11:32 pm

One thing I havent seen in the responses is the idea of going to Todd’s website and reading from his teachings or “writings”. That tells the whole story. Really bizarre and unbiblical teaching. Also very key, and to me a picture of his entire approach…. in his writing called A Face to Face Encounter he describes seeing Jesus. He says that Jesus has all this bright light coming from him and then Todd says “….(then) when I saw heaven I wanted to pass the Lord.” So he says he saw Jesus, like for real…. did Todd fall on his face before Jesus, did he worship….. no actually he just wanted to pass Jesus by in order to get to the really exciting stuff. No, he did NOT see Jesus, and he doesnt seem to be bothered by the fact that he didn’t worship him. (Then again since it had to be something demonic it is good that he didnt worship the false Jesus, but Todd doesnt get that either.)

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Bene D 05.08.08 at 3:22 am

Ah good Wood, I was hoping you’d post. I think you have something to say.:^)

Fat Prophet, I respect your openess. The first time I was in a Pentecostal church the tongues started and there was no interpretation so I walked out.

The second time, all was done decently and in order. I wasn’t quite used to the uninhibited style of worship, but because everything lined up with scripture I quite enjoyed it.

The twitching etc?
This isn’t new, Shakers weren’t called Shakers for nothing.
Charles Wesley was quite put out when he had to share a room.

In Hinduism the manifestations are called kandalini and is no different than the Chinese occult practises in Qigong.

The twitches, unintentional repetition, loss of thought, smelling fragrances, animal sounds or involuntary vocalizations, hissing
(you’ll see Benny Hinn has lost control of that - the snake at the base of the spine has healing power)
feelings like electricity, warmth, overpowering joy or peace, uncontrollable movement, suspension of thought and giving over to pure emotion (called clearing the mind in Kanalini yoga), visions, trances, an unhealthy devotion boardering on worship for leadership.
Hindus call this inner power they receive shatki and they have great respect for it because people have had mental breakdowns seeking it.

If we don’t recognize what is harmful then what good are we as followers of Jesus Christ? If we don’t know blasphemy when we see it what good are we as followers of Jesus Christ?

And while I can appreciate being scolded for bringing up past behavior of leaders, this doesn’t wash. They get away with gross sin with no accountability. We are to speak to being on the vine, speak to character, speak to condoned sinful behavior of leadership.

I don’t believe for one second you are to not be skeptical, I’d be concerned if you weren’t.

The blankets for modesty are normal, the expectation of behavior is there and they stock up. Carpet time.
They keep the most agregious behavior off camera, the birthings, simulated sexual acts etc.
Although Bentley is smart enough to be careful who his assistants allow on stage when the cameras are rolling. For now.

Bentley’s cold readings aren’t polished yet, he covers his mistakes with his suggestions. Plants in the audience are also normal for this crew.

Watch for the flashes of arrogance and anger - that is also something else they lose control over in longer meetings.

You can see some of the more extreme manifestations on YouTube from The Toronto Blessing, Gainsville etc. if you have the stomach for it.

Bentley has had heart problems, he was an addict and some brain damage may be there, but what I’ve seen is very typical, not indicative of personal medical damage or nervousness.

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palau 05.08.08 at 4:18 am

I feel very sick after reading everyone’s comments. (Those opposed to Todd Bentley, and all the other names and movements thrown in to the pot). Sounds as if you all think you are God’s police to the Body of Christ. You go on and on ad nauseum with scripture trying to defend your positions. Your lives must be very miserable to have to slam brothers and sisters who don’t act or behave as you think they should. How would you feel if I came to your church or ministry and started slamming you over the internet just because I don’t agree with you?

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Practical Comfort 05.08.08 at 5:17 am

Dear Curt,
Thank you for your comments.

I read over the entire chapter 2 of 2 Timothy again.And I am not sure what you are refering too.

Chapter 2 is an instruction to Timothy about staying close to the teachings of the Gospel of the Good news and to rightly divide the word for starters(there is much more as you know). In the chapter Paul is illustraiting to Timothy what his character should be as a Soldier of Christ.

Paul warns Timothy to stay away from those who lead people astray and to say out of religious arguments with them because those arguments do not further the cause of Christ but instead harm and confuse new believers.

I also looked up the passages in 1 Timothy 5 . This Chapter is direction to Timothy in the proper handling of church elders who were much older than Timothy. It must have been very awkward for Him to be so young and have to have such a possition of authority.

here is what it says in the KJV:
19:Against an elder receive not an accuasation, but before two or three witnesses.
20: Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

In verse 19 Paul is warning Timothy that if one person comes making an accuisation about an elder that it should be ignored and not accepted as truth. But if two or three credible witnesses make the same accuisation then the matter needs to be addressed.

I might be mistaken but a lot of people take verse 20 out of context when dealing with sins of elders.

Again Paul in another place in the new testament tells people to confront someone who is sinning in private, if they dont stop, bring the pastor or elder as a witness, if they dont stop bring them before the church. The rebuking of a non repentant sinner is allowed, but it must be done with mercy and love so that the person upon repentance can return to the body and be forgiven and accepted back into the body. I admit for elders there probably was a stricter rule for rebuke because they were roll models for the church.

Remember forgiveness is a huge part of what Christians cling to with out it there is just a meaningless string of religous practices.

Back to the original statement in dealing with Todd Bentley. Above in these posts is the testamony of a woman who was in the actual meetings. Some of the things she assumed and related here are not things that I have heard Bently say on the broadcasts on the same nights she says she was there.

Infact I have never heard him say that he could heal anyone. Only that Jesus can. I have never heard him say not to take your medicine.

I have heard him say that you should keep taking your medication until you visit your doctor and he tells you to stop taking it and then bring back verification from your doctor that you are healed.

It is possible that in the confusion of the meetings that she might have thought that when he said ” some of you will be able to stop taking your medications after tonight” that he ment stop taking your medications. again I dont know what it was like actually being there.

I have heard him say that the only way to salvation is through Jesus. And I have seen him give alter calls ( I havent been to Lakeland so i only know what is recorded on the net and tv.)

If you go further and test Bently from 1 Timothy 6: 3-5 where
Paul is telling Timothy how to behave toward false teachers, the only test that I can see Bently will fail is one of denominational doctrinial prefrences.

Bently does teach Christ is the Only way to God. He does teach godliness. He does teach Godly purity and he does teach Grace.

In fact in that collection of verses Paul says even if they teach the Gospel if the fruit is pride, strife, criticism, railings and evil surmisings and a number of other negitives I have witnessed in almost every denomination among church people trying to be Godly, but not actually knowing God… well Paul says dont have anything to do with people like that.

Bently doesnt seem to fall in that catagory.

After having said all of this I do still have one or two questions about the meetings and how things are done. But for now I will keep them to myself because I find it better to wait on the Lord on these issues than to
blindly rush in and add to the fire.

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Practical Comfort 05.08.08 at 5:32 am

Bene D,

Wow. that is some interesting information you are putting out there. Do you have some documentation so that I can read up on some of the phenomonon’s you mentioned.

I am stitting here desperately wanting to please God in all this, especially by what I type. I dont want to crush the spirit in any way. But I think the information you pointed out would be most helpful in considering all that is going on in Lakeland and with a few of these other loosly connected ministries.
thank you,
~PC

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Practical Comfort 05.08.08 at 5:33 am

Bene D,

Wow. that is some interesting information you are putting out there. Do you have some documentation so that I can read up on some of the phenomonon\’s you mentioned.

I am stitting here desperately wanting to please God in all this, especially by what I type. I dont want to crush the spirit in any way. But I think the information you pointed out would be most helpful in considering all that is going on in Lakeland and with a few of these other loosly connected ministries.
thank you,
~PC

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Bene D 05.08.08 at 6:57 am

There are several sites - secular or religious.

I put a lot out.
Do you want to know about Shakers? Kandalini?
Chinese occult practises? Joels Army/Third wave/Latter Rain?

Paul Cain Patrica King(aka Coking) Bob Jones

The Apologetics Index
Discernment.org
Catholic Reason
Spiritual Counterfeit Project
Banner Ministries UK
wiki

Google terms such as:

Toronto Blessing, Pensacola/Gainsville/Brownsville
Kandalini/charismatic
Shakers
Kansas City Prophets
Third Wave Prophets
Jonathan Edwards (I’ve never been able to get through his writing)
Yale U has The Jonathan Edwards Centre with his book Religious Affections
Rick Ross forums

Kundulini - http://www.inplainsite.org/html/kundalini.html
Kundulini FAQs

The Encyclopedia of New Age Beliefs - Ankerberg and Weldon

Dr. Nick Needham has studied stage hypnotism and charismatic healing services. His work studying this in the TO Blessing is in The Shepard an Orthodox publication - orthodoxinfo.com

I’d also look at sites favourable to Third Wave - there is a fair amount of first hand testimony on the manifestations without awareness it is experienced in other religions.

That should keep you busy for a bit.:^)

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Gerry 05.08.08 at 2:55 pm

This is in response to Kim’s numbered objections. I think what it boils down to if you are right then christians should be (in your numbered order)

1. Broke spiritually and financially (not to be confused with being poor in spirit which has everything to do with humility and nothing to do with living life powerless)
2. Powerless and weak.
3.Critical
4.Silent
5.Unorganized

Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought based on scripture that we were supposed to demonstrate the spirit’s power. Jesus said all the works I have done you will do. and GREATER. Paul said to those who were preaching Christ even out of selfish ambition that he was THANKFUL for them because the name of Christ was being preached. If we are not careful we will throw the baby out with the bathwater and end up missing out on the things of God because they do not look the way we think they should. Ultimately may God be true and every man a liar!

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DH 05.08.08 at 2:56 pm

Personally I believe both BeneD AND Todd Bentley are over the top. I personally believe that the Gifts of the Spirit, tongues, etc. are for today. I also believe that people can have experiences that are in the flesh. I do think that for Bene to associate Kandahlini to Charismatic is really over the top. My experience with Charismatic churches is that the focus IS on Christ alone for Salvation and that the worship of christ is preeminent. I think for people to slander or throw the baby out with the bathwater on certain experiences are just over the top. I also will say for people to say that all of these experience are from God are just as over the top. We must “test the Spirits” and have people with the gift of dicernment to help us. One of the things to test is does it lead people to Salvation, Sanctification and a greater worship of Christ? In my experience with some of these groups is that it does. I will say that many are over the top (Toronto and some other) the experience seems to me more important. I will say that the rebuke of prophesy by Bene is way over the top and again I believe that Paul Cain and Bentley are over the top. From my experience as a Christian many of the things are in between these two groups and after looking into it in light of Scripture I see nothing wrong with how God truly works in people lives to become closer to God.

I think what Lee says above is really what I believe.

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Observer 05.08.08 at 5:23 pm

*Paul said to those who were preaching Christ even out of selfish ambition that he was THANKFUL for them because the name of Christ was being preached.*

You blinded heretic, you must also then be thankful for Muslims, Jehovahs witnesses, mormons, new agers, unification, and thousands of other heretical groups who preach A gospel and A Christ too.

There are MANY false Christs, there is only ONE TRUE CHRIST, same with false GOSPELS compared to one TRUE gospel as found in the inspired Hebrew and Greek text, or validated english translations like the KJV, not one of the new age translations that these heretics use today.

Paul was obviously ONLY talking about certain men who were actually repeating the same EXACT things that he and the other apostles were preaching, NOT some other gospel and other christ like Todd Bentley and all these other groups are preaching. You are truly sick if you think the Bible supports being thankful for the name JESUS CHRIST to be used associated with anyone but the TRUE JESUS CHRIST and His true gospel.

When a demon possessed woman was following Paul around preaching about Jesus and proclaiming Paul was sent by Jesus (which was true), Paul DID NOT support it at all. Paul nor any other apostle supported demon led people being spokespersons for the true God. Paul and the apostles said those who were heretics should not be even let into your house and should be rejected and should be *accursed*.

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Bene Diction 05.08.08 at 6:07 pm

DH my friend do get a grip.
I am not a cessationist, nor am I lumping all charistmatics in one fell swoop. I’m talking about Bentley and his crew.
There seems to be little sense in talking about this.

What you hear is not what I said.
Take a look at the Kansas City Prophet/Latter Rain movement historically.

While I have no patience for Bentley leading others down the garden path, I feel sorry for him. He fell into this movement from the start of his conversion, knows little else. He’s been groomed, and it would be great if he could take some time away from this extremism and get taught and grounded in orthodoxy.

But he hasn’t, the group is aging and needed a new face.
You saw the video Richard posted, a baby Christian was groomed.
He’s it.

Check out what I’ve said against scripture, against history, against doctrine, against their own words and look at the fruit.

And since you do accounting read Fresh Fires Rev Can return and in your professional opinion tell us what a reasonable increase will be for his next return given his 12 city US tour and UK, Asia ciruit this year.

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DH 05.08.08 at 6:39 pm

Bene, as a person who went to one of the Kansas City churches and who is a big fan of Mike Bickel, I can’t sit back and let you throw the baby out with the bathwater. I agree mistakes were made in Kansas City but there were some wonderful growths in the Spirit and a greater relationship to Christ that occurred in my life that wouldn’t have happened otherwise.

Did he make mistakes? absolutely Should Paul Cain not been as promoted by Mike Bickle? absolutely Are all of the prophets from Kansas City “false”? absolutely not Are some of the Kansas City prophets “false”? absolutely

See, you seem to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You seem to talk about things at locations you never have been to. I seriously doubt you have been to the Kansas City churches you so condemn. At the same time I agree with you to a point that major mistakes were made.

Again Bene, you seem to state that I’m in wholehearted agreement with the Bentley. I’m not I just believe your “throw the baby out” approach and overgenerlaizing by lumping multiple groups into one group is what I take issue with.

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anon 05.08.08 at 7:27 pm

*Are all of the prophets from Kansas City “false”? absolutely not*

Which of them do you think is a true prophet then you lying deceiver. You don`t have the guts to post even one name though do you lying heretic because you know they are all false despite what you wish and proclaim them to be.

You are no spokesman for the true Christian gospel as found in the sound doctrines of the true Holy Bible.

I understand that this is a subject that raises strong passions, but please try to express yourself with civility. ~Admin
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DH 05.08.08 at 9:37 pm

Anon, I’m not a lying heretic. The “fruit” of a doctrine are if people are accepting Christ as their Savior and if people are pursue a greater amount of Sanctification.

Before I answer your question, do you believe that the Gifts of the spirit mentioned by the Apostle Paul are for today?

Again I do have an answer to your questions and have names but your hostility prevents me from beginning to comment. However, I will answer if and only if you answer the above question.

Richard, thanks for standing by me in helping the “civility” with the thread. It would be nice if you might go a step further and question a person calling me a heretic or calling me a person who doesn’t stand up for the sound doctrine of the Christian Gospel. Richard, you know these statements from Anon are not true. Please help, Richard, dh

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faithwalk 05.09.08 at 12:11 am

I found this site googleing the todd bentley errors. Thank you to those who have written to expose this falsehood. I am greatly concerned that paul cain who has confessed to homosexuality has evidently been flown down there by mr. bentley. Why aren’t these men going to the hospitals where the real needs are? That is a question for all these supposed faith healers including benny hinn who spends thousands of dollars on presidential suites nightly on his crusades all over the world. From what I understand paul cain has not submitted to any authority since his confession, and yes the Lord forgives, but I think there should be an accountability and a standard and anyone who has been arrested for homosexuality, should not be allowed to hold a revival meeting at all for any reason. Man, the local leaders should shut this down. I feel sorry for those who will find out that they have been robbed of their hard earned money for selfish ambition and gain. I used to follow some of the name it claim it leaders, and bought book after book trying to get more of the Lord when I finally realized that he was with me all along, that He is my personal Savior, I don’t need these revivals to know this, and How liberating this was, and is. We must guard ourselves from these wolves in sheeps clothing. I pray he will be exposed soon. Thanks

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Mark 05.09.08 at 12:16 am

Having myself come from a very hyper charismatic background and still believing in the gifts I have finally had to move away from this type of movement/church practice in order to remain true to Christ and the Word. The present state of the Charismatic church in the UK is one of being in a state of deception. The gospel that is declared is more often than not a Santa Claus gospel based purely on selfish need rather than sacrifice. come to Jesus and he’ll meet all your needs. Repentance no longer involves restitution its just a case of being sorry. The need for fleshly entertainment and control finds itself bolstered in this so called revival event. If anyone gets saved or healed its only by God’s grace despite the meeting. Its weird that the preaching of the Word is reduced to 20 or 30 minutes becuase of peoples poor attention span (thats the excuse) but worship and the slot where God turns up to heal can be longer. The Word is living and active and the outworking of the Spirit. Why cant those who beleive in healing simpy find the faith to beleive that the Spirit can keep people awake for longer than 30 minutes.
You are no longer able to challenge anything. I’ve asked questions on the Dudley revival site and been removed. I simply asked if it was biblical for an Angel called “release” to turn up setting people free as I thought this was the work of Jesus. I also challenged the statement that you needed to give to God to recieve a blessing! I was taken to a different chat room and told that God does nothing without man first acting. I asked what Saul had done whilst killing Christians to warrent his visitation. No answer totally ignored.

My friend who has been claimed that the healing were wondeful. I asked him how many amputations were put right, how many guide dogs had been left behind etc. He admitted that every healing (?) was a not visable healing ie back pain. This does not strike me as genuine. I beleive in healing, tongues etc but why is the biblical guidance ignored! why do we exclude the amputations etc.

At best Dudley is a “Christian Tourist Event” - I meet the people who years later having not become rich or having actually suffered simply give up on God becuase that wasn’t the package they bought into. Whatever you win people with is what you have to keep feeding them!!!

For all you Americans out there - I was very sceptical of anything from the US but have found the “Calvary Chapel” churches to be well balanced - so thanks for that.

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D Baker 05.09.08 at 4:15 am

I’ve got some real concerns about Todd Bentley. Do a Google search on “Todd Bentley” +Angelic +host and you’ll obviously find his teachings on regular Angelic Visitations.

Here’s are two examples from http://www.upstreamca.org/angelichosts.html “Suddenly, I fell under the power in the convenience store and, on all fours, roared like a lion. Then the shop clerk ran with fear and dived behind the counter with the two dope heads right behind him.” Also, he talks in length about an angel communicating with him named “Emma”

If you read all the articles, it becomes clear that he receives his instructions from angels. Isn’t that dangerous?

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Job Anbalagan 05.09.08 at 7:22 am

What are the signs of a true revival?
(i) No human being is glorified. Only God is glorified.
(ii) There is deep repentance and people after repentance start reconciliation and restoration of their failed relationship. As far as the emotional aspects are concerned, people would in tears over their sins. There would be joy in the lives of sinners whose sins have been forgiven. People may see visions during this revival. These visions would bring only glory to God and not to any created beings.
(iii) The crucified Christ would be lifted up in all the messages.
(iv) Healing will take place spontaneously when sinners open their hearts to Jesus. No need to lay hands on the sick people. Even when ordinary people who are revived in this genuine revival would lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.
(v) The preacher or the leaders become popular.
(v) It results in the revelation of the Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Let us read how the Holy Spirit worked during the Welsh revival.

The following are the signs of a false revival:

(i) Man or preacher is glorified.
(ii) Emotions run high without repentance of sins.
(iii) In place of Crucified Christ, there would be angels, miracles of gold dust, etc.
(iv) Physical healing does take place without spiritual healing. Preachers have to use all his psychic powers by laying their hands on the sick people or by “impartation”. There are powers from the other world present during such meetings for healing the sick.
(v) The preachers become “dust and ashes” after the revival and only God becomes omnipresent and omnipotent.
(vi) It results in the revelation of another Jesus i.e. Jesus of America or Jesus of India, and not the Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

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Mark 05.09.08 at 9:58 am

faithwalk Says: I used to follow some of the name it claim it leaders, and bought book after book trying to get more of the Lord when I finally realized that he was with me all along, that He is my personal Savior, I don’t need these revivals to know this, and How liberating this was, and is.

This is the wonderful testimony that a return to the simplicity of following Jesus is all we need to do to be liberated. I have also spent years covering (figurative) my Lord and Saviour under a pile of books, CDs, ministries, meetings (Im not saying they are all bad but they are when they become your aim and love rather than Christ).

Pauls message to the Galatians is relevant : let me ask you this ONE question did you recieve the Spirit by works or believing what you heard (faith).

Paul basically informs the Galations that this one question would be all that was needed to settle the matter. They had not abandoned Christ but had been persuaded that more was to be added on if you really wanted to move on with God.

I’m trying to finish with the same faith I started with! Jesus needs nothing added to Him.

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dh 05.09.08 at 3:27 pm

I’m also have never supported Bentley or Cain all I’m saying is before one “rebukes” people who are doing things in the flesh that we also are not falsly accusing people who the Holy spirit is moving on. That is why I presented to anon the question if he believes “Gifts of the spirit” are for today. I presonally believe that since these “gifts” are mentioned in God’s Word that they are for today. People have “fell under the power” of the Holy Spirit in Scripture. While I have had major problems with the Kansas City movement I don’t believe it is all bad. Might works of God for the sole Glory of God have occurred their. At the same time some terrible things have happened: Paul Cain and the support therein as well as other impropriaties by some others I rather not mention.

My Faith in God was strengthen by the teaching of Mike Bickle. Did he make mistakes? absolutely but I will never “throw the baby out with the bathwater” in light of my walk with God being closer from His teaching.
Those who condemn him really haven’t taken the time to go and hear him speak or try to obtain documents from his Commitment Classes.

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Job Anbalagan 05.09.08 at 5:05 pm

Referring to my above post, there are some errors in my earlier post which need to be corrected.

In a true revival, the preacher or the leaders do not become popular and they become “dust and ashes” but in a false revival, the preacher or the leaders take all the glory.

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resting27 05.09.08 at 10:59 pm

i was hoping to chat more with “deception sucks” about his/her commentary on MorningStar. I want to make it clear that I think there are numerous flaws in every charismatic ministry out there today.

I do however think it’s important to carefully evaluate these things without falling into the very same hype and distortion that Bentley/Joyner/Bickle/TACF/Bob Jones/Redding(Bethel)/Pain Cain/ or whoever are supposedly using.

Deception Sucks - you were in the school of ministry at morningstar. you “rubbed shoulders” with leadership there. ok. so what’s the point of mentioning Joyner visiting Hitler’s bunker? I mean cmon, what an insinuation. So by your little mention of that event with no real context, you want us to believe he’s there to channel Hitler or something? comments like that certainly don’t bring the body together. and yes, we are talking about the body. I WILL NOT defend some of the abuses I’ve seen members of leadership commit at any of the numerous “renewal” centers around the country, but I would like to remind people that we’re still talking about people who are Christians and that they name the name of Christ and are saved. Perhaps they are in error on a grocery list of items. Maybe it’s doctrinal, maybe it’s behavior. Trust me on the behavior part. I have family members who were repeatedly hurt emotionally while on staff at Morningstar. But I can at least testify to their personal sincerity and desire to follow God and walk in truth. Do a lot of people have access to them and get the chance to offer personal rebuke when they see something? nope. Is that a good thing? nope. But all the sudden we’ve taken this leap where people are implying that these guys are intentionally leading people to follow demons! I mean cmon. Sensationalism? Hi pot. Meet kettle.

Continuing on with “Deception sucks” post - Ok, Rick’s involved with the Knights of Malta… care to give us any reasons as to why that bothers you? Or would it be more convenient to breeze into a message board, drop that statement like it means that Rick is now a warlock and then breeze out. I actually have some concerns about how I’ve seen the Malta deal manifest, but it has everything to do with elitism in the body and nothing to do with a grand conspiracy ala davinci code… lol

A member of Rick’s staff is a former cia agent? true. his name is Matt Peterson. I may not like some of what goes on at MorningStar but I’ll tell you that Matt is one of the most peace filled, pastoral, berean believers I’ve ever met.

Is there a disproportionate emphasis on dreams/vision/revelation etc in some of these camps? sure. and frankly, i’m not sure they always have the correct interpretation for what they’re hearing or seeing.

This post has gotten long enough that it’s probably not worth getting into the debate about what types of revelation are possible (angels, dreams, trances) or not…

But the way that some people respond on this thread? unreal. Should we play who has the greater sin game? Gotta love the people who call other people lying heretics. Incredibly Christlike of you. Good to see that all that sound biblical teaching you’re sitting under has brought forth the fruit of……. love, joy, peace, patience… hey! i think that’s in the bible!!!!

Now before I get branded as the latest one to go over the top… I understand that some of you aren’t on a witch hunt as much as wanting to honestly evaluate teaching and practices as either of God or not, but there are others who are spewing venom that makes whatever error Bentley or others may have look rather tame.

And I can’t leave this other point alone either… Just running into a chat room and posting scripture about wolves in sheep’s clothing or false prophets leading even the elect astray doesn’t really accomplish much. It proves you can use a concordance and post. If you’re using those scriptures hoping that everyone will immediately connect the dots and insert the name “bentley” wherever false prophet is used, please expound. I just can’t see how quoting scripture here or in a chat room suddenly causes everyone to see the light and understand. Seems a little hyper to me. (note: i’m 100% in favor of the scriptures. they are inspired and perfect and complete)

anyway, i’ve rambled enough to cause somebody to chuck a rock at me. let’s see how good i can duck….

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Curt Parton 05.09.08 at 11:12 pm

Practical Comfort,

Thank you for your response. My reference to 2 Timothy was simply to point out that, in the same chapter that you referenced earlier, Paul named false teachers by name:

“Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some” (2 Timothy 2:15-18 TNIV).

Now, in the verse before this, Paul did say:

“Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen” (2 Timothy 2:14 TNIV).

Later, he also writes:

“Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,and that they will come to their senses and escape the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will” (2 Timothy 2:23-26 TNIV).

He definitely cautions against a quarrelsome, resentful attitude and warns against certain kinds of arguments. I wouldn’t agree that this includes all religious arguments or that one should not publicly expose and oppose false teachings and practices. If it does, then Scripture is inconsistent.

Jesus opposed the Pharisees and, yes, even argued with them.

Paul not only opposed Peter directly when he was in error, he wrote openly about the incident to the churches, and indeed to all the church! (Galatians 2:11-21) He had no qualms about showing Peter, and everyone else, where he was weakening the Gospel and hurting fellow believers.

And we are instructed to have a similar attitude (and given a similar responsibility):

“He [speaking of an elder] must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. . . . Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth” (Titus 1:9-14 TNIV).

“Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that the Lord has once for all entrusted to us, his people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Savior and Lord” (Jude 3-4 TNIV).

In Acts 20, Paul explains to the Ephesian elders that the Holy Spirit has made them shepherds of the church of God, then he warns them that wolves will rise up from their own midst. Are not shepherds to oppose the wolf from their midst? In fact, is it not the hireling that abandons the sheep and runs away when the wolf comes along (John 10:12)?

In 2 Corinthians 11:4, Paul rebukes the people because if someone came and preached a different Jesus, or called them to receive a different spirit, or proclaimed a different gospel, they “put up with it easily enough.” Doesn’t this mean that we should not put up with it?

This is already far too long. I’ll write another post covering 1 Timothy 5 and whether the opposition should be public or private.

Grace and peace,
Curt

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Richard 05.09.08 at 11:34 pm

>>“I’ll write another post covering 1 Timothy 5 and whether the opposition should be public or private.”

Don’t feel that you have to…

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Curt Parton 05.09.08 at 11:42 pm

Just a little (I’ll try!) regarding public or private opposition of false teaching and practices. My short answer would be both!

Yes, Jesus did instruct us to first go directly to our brother or sister (Matthew 18:15-20). Eventually, though, this confrontation, if it does not result in repentance, leads to the sin being presented to the whole church. Many who have written concerning Todd Bentley’s ministry seem to have gone through this very process. At this time, it is a matter being discussed openly by the church. I see no reason why each person who now opposes Todd Bentley’s teachings or ministry (you’ll notice this has not been the purpose of my posts BTW) must each attempt to communicate directly with him. We are past that point.

I agree that we must be careful to interpret 1 Timothy 5:20 in context. This is why I referenced the surrounding verses also. In fact, we must be careful to interpret this in the context of the whole letter. 1 Timothy was written so that:

“Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:14-15 TNIV).

In 1 Timothy 5:17-21, Paul wants to make sure the elders are properly honored. They should not be accused of wrongdoing unless there are two or three witnesses. “But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.” I think the balance here is fairly clear.

It also fits very well with the rest of Scripture, where sinning leaders are frequently opposed and identified by name. (Galatians 2:11-21; 1 Timothy 1:20; 2 Timothy 2:17-18, 4:10; 3 John 9-10 for just a few examples.) I think it also fits a context today where a prominent and public leader is thought to be teaching heresy.

If there is public teaching of serious error or heresy or public ministry practices that are seriously in error, then these errors must be publicly corrected. If the teacher or minister won’t provide that correction, then others must do so, for the sake of the gospel, for the sake of their fellow believers and those seeking the truth, and—let’s not forget this—for the sake of the very one sinning.

Blessings,
Curt

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Practical Comfort 05.10.08 at 6:20 am

I started coming to this board a few days ago in my search to understand what I was witnessing, and to investigate the things that were leaving me uneasy with Todd Bentley’s Ministry activities in Lakeland, FL.

I surely didnt mean to get into a Biblical debate with anyone.

I am still convinced, be it right or wrong that most of the people who are critical of Bentley are those who have denominational doctrinial prefrences that are very different from Bentleys.

Im not sure that there is anyplace in the Bible that says seeing visions of Christ and the third heaven is a mortal sin.

I am not sure that translating the greek word meaning powerful explosion of the Holy Spirit’s power in to the slang word BAM is going to have you banned from heaven either.

I have read that we are not to worship angels but there is nothing in scripture that forbids us from talking to them if they bring a message from God. ( of course the we are taught to test all spirits so as not to be deceived and move in error{my words})

I am sure that there are those among us.. here on this board who have decided that speaking in tounges is of the Devil which actually has no Biblical background either.

I did figure somthing out today. Most people who seem connected with the meetings in Lakeland are calling it an outpouring. I didnt realize this, but the way it was discribed to me, is that an out pouring is suppose to be the move of the Holy Spirit to prepare the church(es) for ministry so that they will be ready to share the gospel and equipped to disciple the people who receive Christ.

Inother words this is suppose to be the thing that brings those who are already saved in to alignment with God’s will, cleaning up their lives and making them ready vessels for the harvest.

Does anyone know anything about this?

I am really learning a tremendous amount on this board. Thank you all for allowing me to post. ~PC

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Bene D 05.10.08 at 10:54 am

Every few years the Kansas City Prophets talk about an outpouring.
It’s for the church, it’s for the country, it’s for whatever.

I would suggest you look at some of their ‘prophecies’ on outpouring over the last four years.

Hope this helps, there are discernment sites that have copies of the ‘prophecies’. I’ve enjoyed the conversation for the most part to and alos have learned. May God give you wisdom in your seeking.

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Curt Parton 05.10.08 at 8:05 pm

Practical Comfort,

I’m sorry if I got carried away! I love to discuss these things and appreciate it when I’m challenged. Iron sharpening iron, and all that.

Thanks for the exchange and God bless you,
Curt

PS: BTW, I’m not at all opposed to God working in supernatural and dynamic ways. I believe that such spiritual gifts as tongues and prophecy are still valid today. I also believe that all ministries and experiences must be discerned and evaluated according to Scripture, and that we who are open to the supernatural moving of the Spirit bear a corresponding responsibility for this biblical discernment and evaluation. ‘Nuff said. I don’t want to wear out my welcome!

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Practical Comfort 05.11.08 at 12:00 am

Curt, not a problem .. I would do Bible study with you any time. Thank you for the compliment.

Bene thank you for the input its all most interesting.
God’s will be done. I am sure I shall return with more questions at a later time.

In the mean time .. Im off to celebrate Mum’s Day! Have a great weekend folks!

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Jeff 05.11.08 at 7:27 am

Please guys and gals. This is an admonishing!
If this is not true, it will come to nought, if it is true, you will have to answer to God for every word that you have uttered here!

The question that we all should ask ourselves is simple.
Are the things (Healings, miracles, etc.) of God happening in our church services. Are they?

If we all found that Todd Bentley is a big hoax. The question remains:
Are the things of God happening in our Methodist Church(es). Maybe, our commentary, dialogue and prayer should be about “why not”. IF WE ALL ARE HONEST!
Because the truth is simply this; if it was happening in our churches we would not be having this sad strisng of blogging about folks that chose to go abroad for what they can not recieve in their congregations!

THAT WE MAY BE ONE,
JEFF

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RabbiRay 05.11.08 at 9:33 am

Hello everyone,

Unfortunately we like to be judgemental. God says judge not least you be judged. That is why we have His Word.

So with that in mind let me quote the Word of God which judges all things.
Ezekiel 44:23-24

A true priest (prophet/judge/teacher) of God will teach my people the difference between the holy and the common and show them how to distinguish between the clean and the unclean.

In any dispute the priests are to serve as judges and decide it according to my ordinances . They are to keep my laws and my decrees for all my appointed feasts (Passover/Shavuot/Taberbacles etc) and they are to keep my sabbaths holy. (Saturdays)

So now any person can know who a true or false prophet. Correct?

I have bracketed words for ease of clarity only. Of course we could reproduce many other scriptures here but what would be the point?

One scripture or word from our Father should be enough warning. Shouldn’t it?

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dh 05.12.08 at 4:51 pm

I still have problems with all of the attacking statements towards Mike Bickle and Rick Joyner. Are some of the other people mentioned have problems? absolutely The fact remains is that the gifts of the Spirit are for today and that we should ALL desire a greater measure of God’s Spirit to do the Works of the Kingdom that God calls Believers to do.

If Joyner and Bickel names weren’t used I would probably agree with those who are being balanced on this thread. The attack on Joyner and Bickle are whats over the top.

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Celia 05.12.08 at 11:16 pm

Last Tuesday Che Ahn from visited my area (Maidenhead) from the Florida ‘revival’. A meeting was arranged at the last minute in the Holiday Inn and despite minimal publicity, it was packed.
If this was an example of how things are in Florida it is something to thank God for. Before the meeting the host church prayed non-stop from the Sunday evening until mid day Monday. The collection was taken early in the meeting and despite the expense of the hall hire it all went to third world projects. When the sick were prayed for those wanting prayer were invited to stand and members of the congregation went to them and prayed with them.
It was a delight to have the opportunity to not only pray for others but shortly after see them show how they had been healed and hear their testimony. If you go to the River Church Maidenhead web site you can share some of those very genuine testimonies and hear what was said at the meeting.
I found the music far too loud, but I’m an ancient Evangelical Anglican and not used to more exuberant styles of worship.
The gospel was preached and I heard nothing that I would consider heretical or dubious.
The end of the meeting got a bit weird with folks lying around all over the floor, having caught a couple on the way down I was determined that I wouldn’t end on the carpet when prayed for (I did) the jargon was unfamiliar “slain in the Spirit” “impartation” etc but it was a very powerful experience that left me feeling happier and closer to God than I have felt for years.

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John 05.13.08 at 12:22 am

The Florida Healing Revival: Heaven or Hype?

We were keen to emphasise the supremacy of Jesus, the completeness of the Gospel of Grace and the need for the Church to be obedient to whatever Jesus, the Head, commanded. There was a tremendous response from those attending the daily sessions and there was a real desire among the churches represented to bring the Gospel of Jesus to the rest of society.

We returned, full of enthusiasm, determined also to see our own home church become more overtly evangelistic, proclaiming the Gospel in a direct and accessible way. Our church, has been heavily involved in community outreach through service, in championing social justice issues and in partnering with churches, schools, orphanages and hospitals in Ghana, Uganda, India and Brazil. We now wanted to ‘sharpen’ our proclamation of the Gospel, introducing, among other things, a weekly ‘Church in the Café’ on Thursday evenings.

Just as the first of these was about to begin we became aware of a growing interest in the God Channel’s coverage of ‘The Great Florida Healing Revival’. Mildly interested, we watched one of the services and over the past few weeks we have watched about a dozen more. We have seen services attended by a few hundred people become events filling small stadiums, with hundreds of Christians, including pastors and ministers flying in from all over the world. Many thousands have been following the meetings on the God Channel and on the internet. As one of them, what have I seen?

Firstly, I have been struck by some really excellent worship-leading. It has been consistently focused on Jesus and on God’s glory, it has not lapsed into ‘me’ sentimentality and, at times, I have found myself being truly captivated by thoughts of Jesus as I have listened to the words and music of the songs.

Secondly, there’s Todd Bentley! I accept that different personalities and styles appeal to different people, but I must confess that I have not found what I have seen and heard, naturally attractive. I don’t like to say it but my first reaction was that I found his style bombastic, his oratory alarmingly self-focused and his mannerisms more than vaguely annoying. More worryingly, his theology comes across as an ill-defined mixture of the Bible (though with little evidence of an understanding of hermeneutics), popular ‘spiritual warfare’ speculation and personal ‘revelation’. His presentation of the theology of the Gospel is unclear, his spirituality involves a highly developed but also highly speculative and questionable angelology that tends to detract from the centrality of Jesus and his emphasis on ‘the anointing’ and on ‘the Glory’ depersonalises the presence of God. (Latterly, however, this last point has been addressed as he has begun to stress regularly, that ‘Jesus’ is ‘the Glory’.) It is also true that he has promoted the ‘revival’ by encouraging those watching on the internet and on TV to get on the next available flight so that they can experience the ‘revival’ and bring it home with them to their churches and communities.

With the appearance of a number of established figures from the ‘renewal/revival’ movement such as Steve Hill, Che Ann and Bobby Connor, there has been evidence of Todd Bentley placing more overt emphasis on Jesus and the Grace of the Gospel rather than on ‘the revival’. To his credit, he has also talked less about himself and his role in ‘the revival’. Controversially he invited Paul Cain to speak at one of the stadium meetings. Paul Cain has been a controversial figure in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles for decades and recently had been ‘under discipline’ for alleged ‘moral lapses’. What is also true is that Cain has had a long track record in proclaiming very accurate ‘Words of Knowledge’, especially in the context of healing meetings (I have personal experience of this). It is also important to point out that Bentley’s decision to invite Cain, ought not to be criticised on the grounds of Cain’s past failings; Grace does include the concept of restoration!

Overall, what I have outlined so far, apart from the worship, would not cause me to give the programmes more than a cursory glance. What I have outlined so far, however, is not the full story.

There is no doubt in my mind that Todd Bentley wants to see people saved and that he wants them to experience God’s healing power and presence in their lives. His theology of the Gospel may be ‘sketchy’ but his proclamation of Jesus as Lord and Saviour is clear and clearly presented. People are given an opportunity to respond to Jesus as Lord and Saviour at every meeting that I have watched and many hundreds of people do so. Of course, it may be objected that the ‘Jesus’ that Bentley proclaims is not the Jesus of the Scriptures but I think that it is difficult to sustain this claim. People listening to him, recognise Jesus as the real historical person of Jesus of Nazareth who died on the cross for their sins and who must be confessed as Lord. Certainly those who are responding to the offer to come to Jesus have as much understanding as the dying thief on the cross and, more pertinently, the same faith in the same person. To try to argue that Bentley is proclaiming a ‘false Jesus’ would require him to be denying that Jesus is Lord and Saviour in his preaching. Whatever other short-comings there may be in his preaching, this is not one of them.

There can also be little doubt that some genuine healings have been taking place. Even when the hype, the wishful thinking and the spurious have been dismissed there are convincing accounts of real, confirmed physical healings. It is true that the evidence for many of these have come from personal testimonies though some of these have been backed by church leaders affirming that members of their congregations have been healed. There have also been assertions that doctors have confirmed some healings but, of course, I have no way of checking this out. There have also been ‘instant’ healings captured by the TV cameras and, again, while there is no way of checking that these are not ‘set up’, the emotional sincerity of the individuals and the surprise and joy evident on their faces would require a cohort of well-trained actors to falsify. In short, the same sort of evidence is presented as was presented in the Gospels and in the Acts of the Apostles: people claimed that they were ill, they were brought directly or through prayer to Jesus and they and onlookers claimed that they were healed. In truth, it is difficult to believe that the meetings would ever have attracted the crowds that they have if there were no healings to substantiate the claims that this is a ‘healing revival’. Wishful thinking can only go so far.

It is equally clear that Bentley and others with him have faith to believe that Jesus both saves and heals and that they are prepared to act on their faith with a degree of boldness and enthusiasm that is not generally evident in the Church. Regardless of whether or not Bentley presents an attractive figure, he does display faith as he prays for people to be healed and it is clear that his faith is in Jesus, the healer. I acknowledge that I find the ways in which he sometimes pushes people and shouts ‘Bam!’ irritating, unnecessary and theatrical but I don’t find that they compromise the reality of his faith in Jesus. Bentley may be dismissed as a ‘fool’ by some but ‘holy fools’ have been an important ingredient in the Church throughout its history. Maybe seeing one close up isn’t quite what we imagined him to be, but then again, figures like Francis of Assisi and Smith Wigglesworth were also far from ‘normal’. (Francis was given to preaching the Gospel to animals and Wigglesworth used to thump those he was praying for at the site of their illness!)

So what have I found in the Florida Healing Revival? Negatively, some very poor theology, an unappealing level of hype and self-promotion and an individual whose public persona I have difficulty in relating to, (I say this because the private Todd Bentley may, for all I know, be quite different from the one that I have seen on TV and he and I could get on like a house on fire).
The emphasis on the role of angels is particularly worrying since the Apostle Paul specifically warns us against getting caught up in such thinking, ‘Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.’ (Colossians 2: 18, 19) This is a stark warning for all of us not to take our eyes and focus off Jesus, who alone is the One that we follow and who alone is Lord, Saviour and Healer. Even if Todd Bentley’s theory of angelic activity is right (which I doubt), there is no reason whatever for him or for us to be interested in and intrigued by angels. Such an avenue leads to experience-seeking rather than Jesus-seeking; to foolish and misguided activity rather than to obedience to Jesus, the Head of the Body. Angels are messengers from God and it is His business how they go about their work; our calling is to focus totally on the Lord, not on His servants. As we look for salvation and healing for those, as yet, outside the Kingdom of God, we look only to Jesus. This cannot be said often enough or loudly enough!

On the positive side, I have also seen a coming together of three things: the Grace of God, a response of faith and human hunger. I believe that Bentley and others have responded in faith to Jesus the Saviour, Lord and Healer and that, in faith, they have proclaimed Him to an audience hungry for this reality. The result has been messy, it has been immature and it has been wrapped up in some bizarre packaging. Much of the Church, however, is in a mess, immaturity takes many forms and there are many bizarre rites and rituals that Christians adopt that appear ‘normal’ just because we are used to them. The results, however, of the recent events in Florida have also been of people being saved and healed and of many Christians waking from slumber.

I say this because I have seen Christians in our own Church sparking into new life as they have been challenged by the message to proclaim Jesus as Lord and Saviour and to believe that He is still the Healer today. I have also seen people returning to discipleship who had wandered away and I have seen people confess Jesus as Lord. There might be a lot of bathwater around but there is a baby that we ought not to throw out! All that is good about the events in Florida comes totally from God; all that is bad comes from human sin and weakness. So it is, throughout the Church; it can never be any other way.

One more thing…..we have started the Church in the Café on Thursday evenings which has meant that we simply do in a café, what we do in church. We worship, we teach and we pray for one another. One difference is that we can be seen clearly from the street as the café has very large windows on two sides. As you might imagine, some people have watched us from a distance and last week one man came into the café during the day. He spoke to two people who had been worshipping the previous evening. He had a question for them. He had first of all thought that a party was in progress but as he watched he realised that the hand-raising and movements were not dancing but some expression of worship. His question: What was it, that he saw all over the room descending from the ceiling and touching peoples’ heads as they sang and prayed? What indeed?…….

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Yebo 05.13.08 at 4:25 am

All about Todd’s “Angel” named Emma and rare close up photos of his occultic tatoos which he got years AFTER he started preaching and claims to have become a Christian.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2909690/AN-ANGEL-CALLED-EMMA

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Deception Sucks 05.13.08 at 4:57 pm

Please do yourself a favor and CHECK THESE THINGS OUT. When did it become wrong to question. The bereans checked scripture diligenly to see whether the things they saw, heard and experienced were really God and THEY were called noble. A couple good resources I have found ( although there are many)
http://www.deceptionbytes.com - some good articles re latter rain theology
http://www.discernmentministries.org- this woman has been studying these guys for years and years and has some VERY good research

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Practical Comfort 05.13.08 at 11:50 pm

“his theology comes across as an ill-defined mixture of the Bible (though with little evidence of an understanding of hermeneutics), popular ‘spiritual warfare’ speculation and personal ‘revelation’. His presentation of the theology of the Gospel is unclear, his spirituality involves a highly developed but also highly speculative and questionable angelology that tends to detract from the centrality of Jesus and his emphasis on ‘the anointing’ and on ‘the Glory’ depersonalises the presence of God. (Latterly, however, this last point has been addressed as he has begun to stress regularly, that ‘Jesus’ is ‘the Glory’.)

Last time I looked the Bible didnt teach that we test the spirit by the presentation and number of Higher University degrees a person has.. we are to test the spirit as to if they agree with scripture and by the fruit they produce. The gospel is very simple. So simple a child can understand it.
Of course a lot of people would be out of work if we did keep it that simple.. there wouldnt be any one to intellectualize our faith.

” I am not interested in my own achievement, nor am I interested in your achievement. I am only interested in what God desires and achieves that is the basis of faith in Christ Jesus. The ultimate achievement was Grace. No learned scholar, no acedemic philosophy expert can top that.”
~unknown

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Practical Comfort 05.13.08 at 11:55 pm

“On the positive side, I have also seen a coming together of three things: the Grace of God, a response of faith and human hunger. I believe that Bentley and others have responded in faith to Jesus the Saviour, Lord and Healer and that, in faith, they have proclaimed Him to an audience hungry for this reality. The result has been messy, it has been immature and it has been wrapped up in some bizarre packaging. Much of the Church, however, is in a mess, immaturity takes many forms and there are many bizarre rites and rituals that Christians adopt that appear ‘normal’ just because we are used to them. The results, however, of the recent events in Florida have also been of people being saved and healed and of many Christians waking from slumber.”

I agree.

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Stuart 05.14.08 at 2:19 pm

Hi, i know people who have gone to Florida, most who’ve been blessed, some have stayed the same. What confuses me is people accusing everything that happens as being deception without having been there. As a scientist I need proof of things before just believing them, but the attitude of some of the above is so aggressive that God gets lost in the debate. I know people who’ve been healed supernaturally. I know people who’ve seen angels. If you have a problem with that then read your Bible better. Using peoples mistakes as a reason for saying it’s not from God is a seriously flawed argument, and half of the Bible would have to be thrown out due to the characters “flaws”. If you dont want to go, dont go, but dont rip it apart either. Thats not only immature, but destructive to what God is doing in some people lives. If you haven’t heard Jesus mentioned you’ve not been listening, and if you want teaching from the word it happens every morning in Ignited Church. Do some research before throwing your rattles out!

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Linda 05.14.08 at 9:50 pm

I went to You-Tube and saw the “healed elbow” video. I have two problems (well, at least two hundred but only two for now) with this video. The parents claim that Jesus came down from heaven, healed the elbow, then went back…was this the second coming? I am a Christian who totally believes in Christ’s return, but I think it will be for one last and final time. The second is when the father states the mother is taking both films to the doctor to show him so he ( the doctor) can be saved. Where did they get the films to begin with? This type of stuff is to be tested by scripture and none of Todd’s services hold water according to scripture that I have studied. His cold readings remind me psychics on late night television or Oprah. And I won’t even get into the angel “Emma”…or does the term channeling come to mind. Linda

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Bilbo 05.14.08 at 11:46 pm

I think people will see the outcome of this in a few months/years and look back and realise how deception really does work… Let the Emotions Run high…

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JS 05.15.08 at 4:35 pm

Satan and his demons must be really pleased - He does not need to bother agravating the Christians, or tearing them apart (words only he does not have any other power) they will do it themselves. Stop tearing each other apart with pointless doctrines - start speading the word - if you dont like Todd Bentley leave him alone Jesus will sort him out!!. Get on with spreading the word instead of fighting amongst each other.

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False Miracles Abound 05.16.08 at 3:48 am

“pointless doctrines”

You dont even know the true gospel. The true gospel IS ALL ABOUT SOUND DOCTRINES, HOW THE HOLY BIBLE DESCRIBES GOD AND HIS WAYS IS WHAT IS CALLED SOUND DOCTRINES, God does not support your ANY JESUS AND ANY DOCTRINE YOU WANT YOU FALSE GOSPEL. REPENT and stop misrepresenting Biblical Christianity with your false any doctrine gospel.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God… If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers….Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

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jan flowing 05.16.08 at 2:17 pm

I have been in the skeptics camp about the whole Todd/Florida issue, but as I watch I have to admit he does give the glory to Jesus and seems so very genuine.

I have done lots of research on the roots of this movement and i still have a lot of concerns, but lets remember that the bible is full of accounts of sinful people whom God used powerfully to accomplish his purposes. Only JESUS is perfect! I am continuing to look to HIM and say ‘Lord, give me discernment. I only want what is truly from you and no counterfeits or deceiving spirits. I will not embrace anything of this movement until I am confident it is God ordained.’

Lets not be critical of individuals. All these leaders are human like us, fallible and weak. Yes, lets test the spirits and hold to Scripture as our plumbline. But it does not please God when we judge or slander individuals. God is the judge.

If all this IS deception, its a dangerous one but nothing is too big for God to deal with and we who trust in Jesus alone will be secure, covered by the precious blood of Christ and kept free by His truth.

Matt 12…

22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

29″Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

30″He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

33″Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

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Beth 05.16.08 at 5:33 pm

Richard, I don’t suppose you’d consider closing the comments on these Todd Bentley posts, would you? Or am I just being curmudgeonly in wishing such a thing?

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Kim 05.16.08 at 5:53 pm

Yeah, Richard, this train is beginning to read like parts of a Flannery O’Connor short story. Except that some of the comments are almost as long as the stories. And the scripture citations: my fellow Americans, chapter-and-verse will do, as I can assure you that we have Bibles in Britain.

But yeah, Richard, go “Bam!”

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Richard 05.16.08 at 6:17 pm

I’ll admit that it has crossed my mind that it’s almost time these comment threads were closed. Soon, I think.

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JS 05.16.08 at 7:19 pm

To false miracles (or something person) What a loving person you are ! do you think you represent Jesus with your spiteful words, you say REPENT if you do know the bible you will know that my sins are forgiven past present and future!! but to just submit reams of scripture (which the demons can also do) does not cover the lack of love you show, read Corinthinans about love and clanging sybmbals…

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