“… is the problem of prayer not the problem of God? People feel that if only they could be a bit clearer about who or what God is they would see more sense in praying to him. Now I am afraid it is going to have to be the other way round. The problem of God is the problem of prayer. Now I am not saying this in a pietistic tone of voice: all these intellectual problems would just go away if you all got down on your knees and prayed a bit more. I am saying that maybe the way we understand God is as ‘whatever makes sense of prayer’. I would say: we understand God as the other end of the personal relationship which is prayer, except that this might take us back into seeing prayer as a ‘personal relationship’ with a god, which would bypass the passion of Christ. In the end I suppose I want to say that God is what makes sense of prayer because God is what makes sense of Christ.
“What do I mean by saying that God is what makes sense of Christ? The gospels as I have said on many occasions insist upon two antithetical truths which express the tragedy of the human condition: the first is that if you do not love you will not be alive; the second is that if you do love you will be killed. If you cannot love you remain self-enclosed and sterile, unable to create a future for yourself or others, unable to live. If, however, you do effectively love you will be a threat to the structures of domination upon which our human society rests and you will be killed.”
“…. The life and death of Jesus dramatise this state of affairs.”
Herbert McCabe, God Matters (London / New York: Continuum, 1987, 2005), pp. 217-18.
{ 21 comments… read them below or add one }
DH 05.18.09 at 8:42 pm
Well, I would say Christ IS God as opposed to God making sense of Christ unless the only way Christ makes sense is seeing Christ as being God for that is what He is.
I also don’t see how anyone can have a “problem with God” or a “problem with prayer”. I also don’t see a “personal relationship with God” as “bypassing the Passion of Christ”. I see the personal relationship with God begining by one’s Faith in that Passion of Christ. Also “you will be killed” aka when Paul says “Be dead to sin alive to God.” 
Just thinking about this word play. One cannot have eternal life without passion: the passion of the Christ and one having passion for Christ.
Joel Betow 05.20.09 at 9:14 am
Thanks, Kim for these postings. Thanks. That’s all I can think to write.
DH,
I’m very glad you are engaging the matter, but may I humbly, as my mortal being seems to allow, suggest that you carefully re-read what has been posted and then react? (This is advice given to me many a time, and such advice or suggestion is often quite correct even if the toes feel quite crunched.) I am not suggesting that such a re-reading will or is supposed to bring you into agreement; rather to allow for an understandable engagement.
Written with apologies to other posters and the blog “owner” from a journalism major trained to write for an 8th grade audience, and also not meant to insult 8th graders.
DH 05.20.09 at 2:02 pm
Joel, I HAVE read the article multiple times. Why would he say this “The problem of God is the problem of prayer” if in fact prayer DOEs make sense? or “The problem of God is the problem of prayer.” What problem of God? There is no “problem of God”.
Why would he say this ” I would say: we understand God as the other end of the personal relationship which is prayer, except that this might take us back into seeing prayer as a ‘personal relationship’ with a god, which would bypass the passion of Christ.” Why does he downgrade a personal relationship with Christ when in fact it does NOT bypass the passion of Christ as I clarified in my previous post.
If my understanding of the post and the guy is incorrect why then would he phrase his writings in such a way that it perpetuates a clear ambiguity?
Kim 05.20.09 at 3:38 pm
Isaiah 6:9.
DH 05.20.09 at 5:35 pm
Kim, can you explain what Herbert is trying to say? If I do understand, which I think I do hense my response, then why would he phrase it in such a way that goes against Scripture or gives the appearance of?
Beth 05.20.09 at 8:41 pm
There is no “problem of God”.
DH, if you really believe that, then I can only include that you haven’t the first idea about God. I’m sorry to say something so harsh, but if you think that there is nothing problematic about understanding, relating to, or thinking about God, then you simply can’t have grasped what God is about. We can never, as human beings, grasp more than the shadow of what God is, and we can never really relate to him except in hope.
Beth 05.20.09 at 8:43 pm
Not “include”; “conclude”. Sorry.
DH 05.20.09 at 9:28 pm
Well by Faith I take God for what He says in His Word. I might not fully understand ALL aspects of God but I don’t consider that a problem. This Faith isn’t a “blind Faith” for in God’s Word we have “…everything for life and Godliness.”
I will say that the “problem with God” is on the people who don’t have Faith in the One True God when one reads Romans 1 (not in reference to the “sin” part but on the “without excuse” part). Even Jesus addressed people who have “problems with God” by saying: “Blessed are they who have not seen and yet Believe.”
I agree that we “know in part” but the fact is that what we know about God is limited but is more than “just a shadow” because like I mentioned with God’s Word and a relationship with Christ by Faith in Him through His revelation we have “…everything for life and Godliness”.
DH 05.20.09 at 9:34 pm
My relation to God is more than just “hope” but is a Faith. “Being CONFIDENT that He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Being “confident” seems a lot more stronger than “hope”. However, to find some common ground we do “know in part”. However, we know more and more about God when we understand that a relationship with God is from “Faith to Faith”. If we stay in our “doubts” we limit ourselves in a relationship with God. However, we can’t forget the times when we didn’t have Faith. So I guess I agree to a point with what you are saying I just don’t approve of the way the author or you are phrasing “problems with God” or “problems with prayer”. I see no “problems” with God on these things but “problems” with us. The problem is us not God.
Rachel 05.21.09 at 11:49 am
I am relieved to see, DH, that you do at least recognise that there are “problems”! Complete certainty is a frightening thing to encounter. I think you are right that the problem is in us, rather than in God, but this is not at all inconsistent with the original text. It talks not of “the problem with God” but of “the problem of God”…. ie the problem we have in trying to relate, through our limited understanding, to God who is beyond our understanding.
DH 05.21.09 at 2:05 pm
Rachel, I think you are projecting more of the “problems” to my post than I intended from my original post. I believe that one can know more about God than what you are relaying from your past post. If you reread what I said we can know everything about God needed for life and Godliness like Scripture says. That to me says that there is so much we CAN know about God.
I still believe that there is not a problem of God or with God.
You seem to neglect what I said here: “However, we know more and more about God when we understand that a relationship with God is from “Faith to Faith”. If we stay in our “doubts” we limit ourselves in a relationship with God.”
Like Scripture says “Blessed are they who have not seen and yet Believe.”
Any “Problem of God” (for the sake of argument) is by people who are not Believers who by Faith need to have a relationship with God. As one learns from “Faith to Faith”
Rachel, while I might not fully understand 100% things about God I definitely would say strongly that I do not have a problem “relating to God”. Having a limited understanding and relating are two different things. Also one must define to what extent the limitation is. I believe one can get a pretty God idea about God from His Word, ineraction with Jesus through prayer, increases in Faith by us seeing God’s miracle working power, etc. I get the impression that our understanding is less than 50% I and God say you can know 80-90%.
DH 05.21.09 at 2:09 pm
add “from you” after the word “impression”. sorry.
Tony Buglass 05.21.09 at 11:39 pm
“I still believe that there is not a problem of God or with God.”
OK, you don’t have a problem with God. Good for you. As a pastor, I deal with people who do have very real problems - and they’re not unbelievers, but believers who are struggling to find meaning in their own ‘dark night of the soul’, to coin a phrase. Yesterday, I visited a Christian lady whose Christian husband is deteriorating with Alzheimers and an unrelated surgical condition, and they have to make very painful decisions about managing his care - they are agonising about where God is in their terrible pain. I walked down a long cancer ward to visit a young mother facing a double mastectomy to combat the breast cancer diagnosed weeks after the birth of her third child: she didn’t know whether she would live to see her children grow up - and of the forty or so young mums sitting in that ward, wearing hats to cover up the chemo-related hair loss while their toddlers played on their beds, a significant proportion would not survive. You can look at that, and not have a problem with God? So tell me what I say to the 7-year old who sees his Dad in tears because his Mum has just died, leaving Dad to juggle work, family, and grief? No problem with God?
Yes, I know the glib answers like “God has taken her out of her pain” - doesn’t help a kid who needs his mum or a Dad who needs his wife. I know the theology - but when you’re in that situation, it becomes so much theory, and no help at all. Believe me, there is absolutely nothing you can say to assuage that grief and hurt. I do believe in the Crucified God, who shares my hurt and redeems my pain - but I’m not the grief-stricken parent trying to explain to the kid why he’s got no Mum any more, or the dying parent trying to face my own mortailty while desperately wanting to live for my kids.
In that situation, there is nothing you can say. So shut up.
Rachel 05.22.09 at 7:50 am
Amen
DaveW 05.22.09 at 3:42 pm
Tony,
Spot on.
DH 05.22.09 at 4:08 pm
Tony, I and my family have faced similar situations. My Grandmother died of Alzheimers, my Grandpa has serious dementia, two of my mom’s best friend died of cancer, my sister-in-law as a children’s nurse has faced hundreds of children who have faced terrible problems and in none of these situations did I ever have a “problem with/of God” nor have any of the people I mentioned did as well. That doesn’t diminish the clear pain I know and have experienced. Lord knows I cried the day find out that my wonderful Grandmother got Alzheimers. I never once though had a problem with/of God. I too had a “dark night of the soul” but that had nothing to do with saying I had a problem with/of God.
To me what you call “glib answers” DO help to a point. That doesn’t mean that it takes away the pain. “Consider it all joy when you face trials and tribulations.”
To the child I would say what you call “glib” would be “your mother is in heaven and is in a better place. I know you are going through terrible pain but God says He will take care of you in the midst of the pain.”
Again I have faced similar situations to the ones you have described and for me I don’t see the need for myself or people to have a “problem with/of God”. Having questions about situations on is occurring and projecting that onto God are two different things. When David faced trials he always said “…yet I will praise you.” Paul had a thorn in the flesh that ailed him he also questioned God but he never said that he had a “problem with/of God”. Asking why or having questions regarding situations is not the same as saying their is a problem with/of God.
Tony, I’m sorry you feel the need to tell me to “shut up” I never said that to anyone. Also, as you can see I have faced many a “trials and tribulations” and I’m really trying to show that one shouldn’t see the need to project “problem” in association with God. We live in a sinful world, we sin, God has a purpose, life is difficult and shouldn’t be denied, etc. are many many reasons we face terrible situations but to project that onto God is difficult for me to grasp even in light of what I have faced in life which has been very difficult as well. We can help people to “be strong in the Grace God has given you.”
Tony Buglass 05.22.09 at 6:57 pm
You miss my point, DH. You say you had no problem with God in those situations. Well, good for you. But other believers DO have a problem with God. I stress that I’m talking about believers. Now, I could generalise from their experience to say that you ought to have had a problem with God, but that would be a bad argument - they are not you, and you are not them. By the same token, you cannot generalise from your experience and say they ought NOT to have had a problem with God. They have. Their ‘dark night of the soul’ was obviously a bit different to yours. (Incidentally, the phrase comes from the medieval mystics, where they describe a particular part of the spiritual journey - have you ever read them, or are you just appropriating the phrase because I’ve used it?)
You are a particular personality type, and it expresses itself in your theology, and you responses to issues in these conversations. Not everyone shares your views, not just because we choose not to, but because we see things differently from you. That is at least in part to our personality types, and the way we therefore see the world and feel it - and either see or fail to see God around us in it. Don’t dismiss the very real spiritual experience of other believers just because it hasn’t happened that way for you.
My final comment wasn’t intended as a rude imperative - perhaps I should have phrased it “there is nothing we can say. So we shut up.” Either way, it is true - notwithstanding the simple answer that might help a child, it won’t help an adult, and sometimes the only answer is to say nothing, but to embrace them and weep with them. Most often the child needs a lap and a hug while he cries, not someone trying to explain his cruel and devastating emptiness as a Good Thing. Reflection and explanation comes later, as he is able to hear it. The greatest pastoral gift in those situations is to know when the answer is required, and when it is not.
DH 05.22.09 at 7:48 pm
Tony, you will be surprised that much of what you say I think is very good on your most recent response. When I mentioned “dark night of the soul” it was not in reference to “medievel mystics” but on what my understanding from previous people have said which they also mentioned as not reference to medievel mystics. I guess same phrase but with a somewhat different definition and background but gets the point across nonetheless.
I understand that people have tough times some even harder than what I have gone through. I do agree that there is a time to hug, cry and weep with them. However, after both the encourager and the person who is going through the situation “gets their composure”, isn’t there a responsibility to help the person NOT to associate “problems” with God and to correctly show that it is NOT God but other things that is truly the problem? Again I’m not trying to deny the emotion people feel in situations but to show how we can help people from the concept of “Faith to Faith” that the Bible mentions.
Before I mention the story of Job I don’t want to take away the importance of hug, comfort, etc. of the people who face what Job faces. However, one thing we can do is learnfrom Job as to how we should respond in the face of these difficulties. I never have or don’t want people to think that we should not question the situations we go through. I just don’t believe we should project an attitude that “God is deficient”, problem, not kind, not loving, etc.
Lets look at the story of Job and we all know 1) He got leprosy. 2) his entire family died 3) became a pauper and lost all of his wealth, etc. I see a man who responded in the face of difficulty going through all of the many possibilities to try to come up with an answer for what he was going through. He never denied his Faith in God. However, he still questioned what he was going through. We all know from God’s Word in Job all of the possibilities that he went through in his mind as to the reason (these are listed as Job asking the question with his answer): 1) did I (Job) rebel against God? no 2) Am I (Job) not in God’s perfect will and therefore need fine tuning? no 3) Am I (Job) not praying like I should? no 4) Do I (Job) think God is unrighteous by having I (Job) go through these things? no because God has always been found Faithful in the past 5) etc.? no 6) etc.? no Even when he cursed his life for being born he never questioned his Faith in God with this
“”Blessed is the man whom God corrects;
so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty. He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted., etc., etc.”
Even in his cursing of his life He never questioned his Faith in God because he knew God had been found Faithful. “Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? 10 In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind. I know that my Redeemer [c] lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. [d] 26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet [e] in [f] my flesh I will see God”
The God gives the answer to Job’s prayer by saying: “”Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, 13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?, etc. etc. (aka God showing that He is all powerful and that it wasn’t for Job to figure it out)
Here is something God said to Job that is what should help us to have a proper attitude toward God: “”Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?”
When we say theire is a “problem with/of God” aren’t we really “discrediting God’s justice” or “condemning God to justify ourselves”?
Then Job response with strong Faith realizing he is not meant or should try to understand these things: “I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”
I understand so much Tony that compassion is needed when people face what Job went through. Lord knows that an uncompassionate heart toward people is what can really keep people from experiencing the love of God. However, not helping people learn how to respond from the story of Job is also something that keeps people from experiencing the love of God.
So I guess yes there is a balance. I totally love your last paragraph. I still will say in all of this that there is no “problem with/of God” only with us and the learning what is the correct attitude/response when faced with these situations. All of this must be sais with lowliness of mind and humbleness of soul toward a God who is all powerful, all knowing, all loving and wants the best for us, etc.
Tony Buglass 05.22.09 at 10:25 pm
So now you have to just rewind a bit and reflect on what it meant for Job (and means for anyone going through a “dark night of the soul”) to “have faith in God”.
Job doesn’t stand alone as a book, but is part of a particular voice within the OT - Wisdom literature. Imagine the OT as a choir, and there are different parts - prophecy, Wisdom, history, cultic liturgy, etc. The parts in a choir do not sing te same thing - they harmonise by singing different things, and occasionally by using dissonance as a harmonic tool. That is also true of the different voices of the Bible - standing back, we hear the whole harmonic structure, but getting in close, we can discern the distinct voices and dissonances. Wisdom is quite a different sound to (eg) prophecy - it can explore the experience of life and even its apparent meaninglessness (so Ecclesiastes) without thereby denying the existence of God. The big question is how this existence impinges on the reality in which I suffer. And that can affect what is meant by “faith in God.”
For example, before the start of the story, Job is a devout believer. If anyone had asked him a doctrinal question, he’d have been able to answer it - so “What happens to bad people?” “God makes them suffer.” “What happens to good people?” “God blesses them.” His position would be not dissimilar to the modern evangelical Bible-believer, who has a set of beliefs about God, and the texts with which to back them up. Then it all falls apart - those doctrinal ideas (faith in God which means beliefs about God) are shot to pieces. They don’t work. They are comprehensively falsified - whatever scriptures he could adduce in support, that faith is gone. However, he never loses the conviction that God is there, and is just, and however much or little he can see or understand, it will somehow make sense. IN short, he never loses the faith which is trust in God.
That is the important distinction. The word faith is used both of the trust in God by which we live, and doctrinal framework by which we understand him. I reckon that it is in the dark night of the soul that expereince negates or radically challenges the beliefs about God, and leaves us only that faith which is a blind trust in God - even when we can’t feel or see him, we trust he is there, and that he will eventually make sense of it all.
That in a sense is the problem of God. If he’s there, why doesn’t it work the way it should? Glib answers not only don’t work, but can in fact drive the sufferer further away. The pastoral thing to do is acknowledge the depth of the question, and not disrespect it by trying to reduce it to simple answers. Walking with people along that dark road, accompanying them in love, is the best way to guide them through. When they are in a position to understand more, they’ll ask that kind of question - what is more likely is that they will have a depth of wisdom that their teachers may not have: instead of book-knowledge of God, they will have heart-knowledge. They may dismiss your simple text-based approach because they’ve been through the cross with their crucified and risen Lord in a way you haven’t. If that happens, you do shut up, and listen, because they will teach you.
That’s what Wisdom is about.
BG 09.02.09 at 2:15 am
I did not read everything here, but from what I read, DH is pretty accurate with what he or she is saying. Herbert McCabe says a lot of things that are not right.
Tony Buglass 09.02.09 at 8:45 am
Then I suggest you DO read everything which is here before offering such a comprehensive rebuttal.
Sorry, BG, but that just cuts no ice. I have no remit to defend McCabe, but the discussion above includes some very profound reflection and journeying in life and in the Spirit. I offered something of my experience gleaned over nearly 30 years of pastoral ministry, including a lot of agonising over what it means. You will see from my comments that I have gone back again and again to the Bible to seek to understand where God is in the darkness and suffering.
You are free to disagree with my understanding of things. But you have to at least try to explain yourself.