Palestinians face olive harvest threat and blockage again

The vandalism of olive trees is a huge problem and it’s good that there are Israeli human rights groups monitoring it. The Israeli army should also improve its efficiency in opening the gates at the appointed times.

Of course that’s terrible news, Al, and worthy of attention and prayer. But, first, you play the obsession card, a joker for sure, because if you want obsession, try a Bible-believing Methodist local preacher who threatens to take his own Methodist Church to a secular court, despite the clear biblical injunction against such an action (I Corinthians 6:1ff.), which has been the engine to this whole thread (which, further, said Methodist mendaciously misrepresents on his own blog); and then, second, you can’t resist getting all sarky with your gratuitous and insensitive reference to “a few poxy olive trees”, as if the issue were simply arboreal. In short, you’ve got a big attitude problem which thoroughly compromises your pretensions to be a credible conversation partner.

Ouch, Earl. From the guy who adds to the thread by asserting that God says the land is Israel’s, end of.

Richard, you refute my accusation. You say it is ridiculous. Fair enough. You have looked long and hard within yourself and consider there is no basis to what I said. OK. I apologise.

I also apologise for belittling the fate of those olive tree farmers. Their situation is indeed unjust.

Perhaps my impressions having only visited this blog for the last month or so do not reflect the overall content. If that is the case, I look forward to posts in the future that will dispel any erroneous ideas I might have held about bias on the blog.

And Kim, no need to pray for my sick soul. It would be a waste of time!

“more important than a few poxy olive trees£

Could only be said by someone who has no awareness at all of Middle Eastern culture. These ancient trees count for a great deal.

And as far as being anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian are concerned: I have a life-long interest in military history in general and aviation in particular. I have several books on the Israeli Air Force, and a good few models pf specific aircraft which they have used. I’m instinctively on their side - but I cannot be silent when I see Israel treating the Palestinians they way they do.

Now, you want to call me anti-Semite, go ahead. You’ll be talking utter rubbish, but it’ll make you feel better. I have been a friend of Israel since my teens ( a very long time ago), but I cannot be uncritical - isn’t that what friends are for?

Even as someone who has only recently been visiting this blog, the arrival of so many aggressive visitors on the posts regarding Israel come across as a blatant attempt to denigrate any criticism of Israel’s actions in the occupied territories. And the presence of other sites discussing what goes on here, sometimes with personal attacks on Richard doesn’t come across too well either. There seems to be a concerted effort to shut down any criticism through a number of methods such as accusations of racism and anti-semitism.

It would be wrong to say that everyone criticising Israel is anti-Semitic, and it would also be wrong to say that everyone defending Israel is doing so because they are nasty individuals or part of an organised conspiracy.

Absolutely!

Joseph W. it isn’t the criticism’s themselves alone (although partly) but the lack of the number and/or emphesis of criticism toward terrorism and/or support of terrorism against Israel by Syria, Iran, Al Quaida, Hamas or Hezbollah that is the issue. This lack or neglect of criticism toward those against Israel is what rationally begs all of the questions that have been asked by myself and others. Until the questions are answered than how can those who criticize Israel expect any dialogue when the answers are fairly simple?

I never have believed that anyone here is “anti-semetic” but the questions I have raised and by others have never been answered and I have no other clues as to why. For proper dialogue we need these questions answered and they need to be logical for the questions are very logical and reasonable.

Ok, DH, I’ll try an answer. The question which has been raised concerns Israel’s policies, and in particular a Methodist Report addressing a particular aspect of those policies. The issue of Hezbollah and Hamas is not directly raised by the Report. For the record, I cannot think of a single Methodist who would not join you in condemning the attacks on Israel by those terrorist organisations. I suspect even Stephen Leah, who introduced the report, would go no further than to suggest that violence beget violence,and terrorism is the response of those who feel themselves under attack and powerless. He would I suspect not thereby justify such terrorism. My own response to his position would be that Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad have been ideologically committed to the removal of Israel from the map, and are therefore initiators of violence. If they were to accept the right of Israel to exist, the sting would be drawn and peace would be areal possibility. If Israel would also accept her obligations under international law.

To be clear, the emphasis on Israel arises from the question which has been asked in the first place. If a broader (better?) question had been posed, it might have been appropriate to address both sides equally, but that wasn’t where this conversation started.

Tony, you have come the closest to answer our questions (particularly mine) of anyone and I appreciate that. It still doesn’t answer fully but it is way more reasonable than what I have observed before. I still think answer isn’t solved in that one cannot criticize Israel without addressing the concerns and threats Israel has as a nation on a day to day basis that is the cause for Israel’s response. We may disagree as to the reasonableness of Israel’s response but one cannot deny that the response is based on the reasonableness of dealing with many entities that desire its destruction and in a tertiary level the Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon and Syria have continued to vote in leadership who support or are know terrorist organizations.

Of course, that should be “two issues” not “too issues”. I just drove home across the Pennines through a blizzard, and haven’t recovered. Hibernation is such a good idea…

dh,

” begs the question as to why all of the other issues weren’t included.”

Because, if you had read what has been written by people such as Angela Shier-Jones in these threads you would recognise that

a) Hamas has already been condemned by the Methodist Church several years ago. They could be complaining that they were singled out first and that the Methodist Church has taken years to add balance to that criticism.

b) The process that led to the report is a messy democratic one. We might like to change the goal posts of the report but it was a specific resolution of the Methodist Conference that requested the report and set the boundaries. The officers of the Church are responsible to conference to do what conference decides. They cannot say. Conference has asked for x but we don’t think that is right so we will do y instead. Because conference is very busy some things will not be noticed until afterwards (ie where we are now) at which point people can take things to the next conference and get the balance sorted out. This all takes time.

I think that is the problem when people equate what Hamas does to the level of what Israel is being condemned for. What Hamas has done over the years is WAY worse than anything for what Israel is being accused of. Sounds like conference if they are ignorant of all of the terrorism in the world but are quick to condemn Israel that they should either become more knowledgable of what they are talking about or just shut up on these matters. What they have done has caused unecessary hostility that can very easily be rectified. Conference is really incompetent not to ask to bring up all the terrorist organizations in conjunction with their Israel accusations.

Tony, I didn’t realize that I have been there before. I totally love Chester. Walking the top of the walls of Chester was a wonderful experience and the very old buildings and shops were amazing. The chapel is very incredible and one of the most historical.

We drove from London, to Stratford-upon-Avon, to Nottingham/Derby, to Chester, to Liverpool,to Carlisle, through the smaller roads to Edinburgh hitting York on the way back to London. We were able to go to some very old homes one was owned by a famous author. There was a major resort complex on the way to Liverpool that was very exclusive and old that we stated at so I know that road. It is very winding and seeing the old walls for sheep owners was so unigue and great. One of my favorite parts of the drive was seeing the river Thames as calm as it was north of London.

Tony, thanks for explaining the Pennines to me. Sorry if I stole your thunder with my post. I just got really excited knowing what the location was and remembering my trip to England I will never forget.

I’m sure you all got a laugh hearing about a trip to your country England from a “Yankee’s perspective”. Unlike you Tony driving it I had the luxury of a bus driver.

I’ll be praying for you Tony on your funerals. I also will pray that God will give you people along the way at the funerals that need Jesus in their hearts. May God give you the appropriate words to say at each and every moment.

DH: ” Sounds like conference if they are ignorant of all of the terrorism in the world but are quick to condemn Israel that they should either become more knowledgable of what they are talking about or just shut up on these matters.”

Sounds to me as if you know stuff-all about the Methodist Conference, the way it works, or the people who are in it. I’ve been a representative to Conference a few times. I’ve read the Reports published in the Agenda, and I reckon there’s a lot more scholarship and knowledge in some of them than ever gets as far as Senate or Congress.

The point here is that this is an entirely democratic process. (I thought the US was supposed to be pro-democracy…). The questions which gave rise to this report came from people who generally have some idea about what they’re talking about, and so do the answers. What comes next is the next stage of the conversation. I suggest you visit the Methodist website at http://www.methodist.org.uk/index.cfm and explore a bit before you get so dismissive about a major voice in the Christian Church. You might learn a bit.

To reiterate what Kim has just written - Al, I have never in my life hated Jews or Israel. I have repeatedly written in comments on this blog that I have been a friend and supporter of Israel since 1967, when as a teenager I saw reports of the Six Day War and became aware for the first time of the Middle East and its issues.

Friends speak the truth in love to each other, do they not? So if I see my friends behaving in a way I find hard to accept, I should say so, should I not?

” The questions which gave rise to this report came from people who generally have some idea about what they’re talking about, and so do the answers.” Well if they truly “know what their talking about” they would know how one-sided and truly biased and unjust to Israel a report like this can be.

Kim, you are correct but you should in a equivilent way in terms or number and emphesis all of the many groups and/or nations who promote terrorism and/or the elimination of Israel. One cannot criticize Israel alone on these issues for they truly ARE interrelated unlike the opposite that is being portrayed by the criticizers of Israel are stating.

I think we need a new term to those who claim myself and others are Islamophobic. How about Islamoterrorignorance.

DH: “Well if they truly “know what their talking about” they would know how one-sided and truly biased and unjust to Israel a report like this can be.”

Think through what you’ve just said. Perhaps it isn’t as one-sided as you think. Perhaps they know rather more about it than you do.

Yes, Paul, these Christian Zionists are such great friends of the Jewish people, who are reduced to human foils for the fulfilment of prophecy (sic) and fire-fodder for the denouement of damnation. Of course, Jews reading DH’s left-behind lunacies will no doubt be reassured by a plethora of .